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Thread: Chess Whatever

  1. #46
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Charles Chadwick (almost as addicted to the C-K as I am to the French!) would probably put the case for the defence much more eloquently than I would, but I do find playing White against the C-K that there is an enormous variety of different styles of position that can result. Especially some of the wilder lines of the Advanced C-K are very odd indeed. I have Kotronias' book on the Advanced and although I'd rarely have the guts to play it with white in anything slower than blitz, I sometimes leaf through it just for entertainment at how strange and messy some of the positions are - just the thought that some of this stuff is actually playable is quite remarkable.

    With the possible exceptions of the Exchange Slav and Petroff I'm not sure there really are boring openings. And even those two can lead to exciting games if the players want them to.

  2. #47
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    I find it annoying that in nearly all openings there are conservative attempts that slow the game down I've been playing around with the Alekhines and 2.Nc3 lines have to be the most boring idea to come from an opening where all is in the air from the word go.
    And still, no one has satisfactorily proven, that it isn't opposite day.

  3. #48
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop
    When I was first taking up chess in the early 1950s I dabbled in both the French and the Caro Kann and even played a few games using the French. As far as I had any style, the French didn't suit it and I agree that I found the Caro Kann even more boring (Sorry Kevin for the implication - it's one of taste and style ).

    I settled for the Sicilian which I have played ever since as there is no end to the richness of variations in it. For every game in which you get crushed - and there are lots of them - there is one where you do the same to White. it rarely lacks excitement one way or the other.

    DJ
    When I was coaching, I taught 3 students Sicilian and they all won easily off black, the 4th student (a champ) insisted in playing Caro Kann and was only one to lose off black. And his mother did not let him forget it for ages

  4. #49
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    Sicilians are only as good as your knowledge of them. If white has better knowledge of mainline theory then he stands a good chance of a big advantage. Things like the french, modern/pirc and caro-kann slips can be made with recovery, sicilians are too sharp (alot of sicilians) so with slips cannot be made.
    And still, no one has satisfactorily proven, that it isn't opposite day.

  5. #50
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saragossa
    Sicilians are only as good as your knowledge of them. If white has better knowledge of mainline theory then he stands a good chance of a big advantage. Things like the french, modern/pirc and caro-kann slips can be made with recovery, sicilians are too sharp (alot of sicilians) so with slips cannot be made.
    Poor Dennis, him and I have something in common - a love of the Sicilian, and I have even coached it - has he? I love it for very hard fought wins and being pulled apart - all whilst playing black. As ages since studied it I mix up the different variations, and still manage to win whilst gambling so why worry about it.

  6. #51
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    Poor Dennis, him and I have something in common - a love of the Sicilian, and I have even coached it - has he? I love it for very hard fought wins and being pulled apart - all whilst playing black. As ages since studied it I mix up the different variations, and still manage to win whilst gambling so why worry about it.
    I haven't coached at all as the occasion hasn't arisen - even hints to my daughter that I coach my 8 yo grandson have been unheeded. However I love the Sicilian just as you do for the same reasons plus the opportunity it gives Black to use an arsenal of different lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saragossa
    Sicilians are only as good as your knowledge of them. If white has better knowledge of mainline theory then he stands a good chance of a big advantage. Things like the french, modern/pirc and caro-kann slips can be made with recovery, sicilians are too sharp (alot of sicilians) so with slips cannot be made.
    There's a lot more to it than that. First of all, your opening sentence applies to any opening and to all of chess. Then, as mentioned above, Black has a host of different lines to pick from and if White knows the "mainline theory" on all of them he'll be very well educated . I don't agree wiith your comment on the French, Pirc and Caro Kann. I have tried two of them and in all of them Black either plays passively/positionally when he runs the risk of being slowly strangled at best or tactically when he is worse off than in the Sicilian. The Pirc is particularly unpleasant in that respect though I prefer it to the French or (theoretically) the CK.

    The basic point of the Sicilian is that it is a counter-attacking opening aiming to nullify White's first-move initiative and intentionally its practitioners go for sharp lines to throw White off balance. That's part of its eternal fascination. To assume that a well booked-up player will necessarily beat the Sicilian is certainly not true even at elite level and, in any case, if true, it would equally appply to all openings. Moreover, players of the calibre of Taimanov and Polugaevsky, for example, spent almost a whole career playing and researching it.

    Do you have any line of the Sicilian for Black in mind that you contend is conclusively refuted by theory?

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  7. #52
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    No but what I am saying is that a defence as a symetrical as the sicilian requires alot of knowledge in handling positions of this type and many players who believe it is the be all and end all of defences for black because of its statistic plusses in high level chess often get beaten quickly simply because if white knows proper theory and black plays proper theory (whatever this maybe) black gets middle games which are alot harder to understand then french, pirc etc.

    Although with the french, pirc and caro-kann playing with the small center is a hard problem to deal with in the middle game but this is somewhat easier to understand compared to the different features of a sicilian.
    And still, no one has satisfactorily proven, that it isn't opposite day.

  8. #53
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saragossa
    No but what I am saying is that a defence as a symetrical as the sicilian requires alot of knowledge in handling positions of this type and many players who believe it is the be all and end all of defences for black because of its statistic plusses in high level chess often get beaten quickly simply because if white knows proper theory and black plays proper theory (whatever this maybe) black gets middle games which are alot harder to understand then french, pirc etc.

    Although with the french, pirc and caro-kann playing with the small center is a hard problem to deal with in the middle game but this is somewhat easier to understand compared to the different features of a sicilian.

    Fair enough. I'd say to that that anyone who chooses to play any opening based only, or mainly, on statistics relating to its success is a dope. You're quite right in saying in effect that one shouldn't play the Sicilian unless one knows what one is doing and has the style, temperament etc to play it. I believe that really goes for any opening and is the very reason that I did not continue with the French all those years ago - it didn't suit my style and I just didn't feel happy playing it. On the other hand I feel very much in tune with the Sicilian and understand its basic aims and that complex positions can arise. That's at least half the fun of it even though I'm not really an expert at it (see below). I tend to feel that your very last comment applies more to W than B in the Sicilian as B is usually the player who gets to choose what line to play unless W wants to play a Closed Sicilian which is sort of counter to the idea that W should bash it, not play quietly against it. I do concede that if you want to play the Sicilian at a high level you need to spend a lot of time studying it but that's not a new idea either

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  9. #54
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    when white launches their kingside pawns at me, I think welcome, you are separating them from their king, who should be defending each other. When white castles queen side, I think beauty, my pieces can attack your king quicker that your pawns can attack my king

  10. #55
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Has there been a game where the only legal move was pawn promotion that resulted to promotion to any piece other than a bishop, due to a bishop promotion would lead to stalemate also due to lack of legal move - or something like that

  11. #56
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    Has there been a game where the only legal move was pawn promotion that resulted to promotion to any piece other than a bishop, due to a bishop promotion would lead to stalemate also due to lack of legal move - or something like that
    Question's a bit confused. Obviously if you can legally promote to one kind of piece in a given position you can legally promote to any of the others as well.

    Also if promotion to a bishop delivers immediate stalemate then promotion to a queen must do so as well.

    There are extremely rare cases where only promotion to a bishop wins. See here.

  12. #57
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    Has there been a game where the only legal move was pawn promotion that resulted to promotion to any piece other than a bishop, due to a bishop promotion would lead to stalemate also due to lack of legal move - or something like that

    I think the answer to that is that the question is flawed (and no I'm not referring to syntax!). If a promotion to a bishop would result in stalemate then so would promotion to a queen (unless of course checkmate immediately appeared, and then not on the diagonal).
    Last edited by Basil; 31-01-2009 at 11:39 PM.
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  13. #58
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    At what level do you think that deep knowledge of a certain opening compensates for it's bad statistics. some defences have like 58% and higher wins for white so does deep knowledge at club level compensate or are you just making it harder for yourself?
    And still, no one has satisfactorily proven, that it isn't opposite day.

  14. #59
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Question's a bit confused. Obviously if you can legally promote to one kind of piece in a given position you can legally promote to any of the others as well.

    Also if promotion to a bishop delivers immediate stalemate then promotion to a queen must do so as well.

    There are extremely rare cases where only promotion to a bishop wins. See here.

    not necessarily coz a bishop or knight cannot return to the square the pawn previously occupied prior to the promotion - there caught you out there. whereas a Queen and rook on promotion could return to prior square. Giving the promotion colour another move. A knight or bishop may not have a legal move.

    (if I have not fooled myyself I have caught you out)

  15. #60
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan

    I think the answer to that is that the question is flawed (and no I'm not referring to syntax!). If a promotion to a bishop would result in stalemate then so would promotion to a queen (unless of course checkmate immediately appeared, and then not on the diagonal).
    Now Gunnar we know who you lost to and we can now see why

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