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  1. #1
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski
    Non-fiction: The Bible
    A very debatable classification.

    I couldn't name a favourite book or a favourite author. I like too many different things and no one thing stands out as way above the rest.
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  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    A very debatable classification.
    Fiction: On the Origin of Species By Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    I thought the Bible was generally found in the Reference section.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    The Bible - libraries see it as non-fiction too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    I thought the Bible was generally found in the Reference section.
    At my local public library there are also copies of it (various versions) in the religion section. interestingly, KB, both sections are non-fiction!
    God exists. Short and to the point.

    Secretary of, and regularly arbiter at, Rooty Hill RSL Chess Club. See www.rootyhillchessclub.org.

    Psephological insight. "Controversial will only lose you votes. Courageous will lose you the election." Sir Humphrey Appleby on Yes Minister.

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  5. #5
    CC International Master TheJoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski
    At my local public library there are also copies of it (various versions) in the religion section. interestingly, KB, both sections are non-fiction!
    So does that make the Qu'ran, Bhagavad Gita, Book of Mormon and all the other works filed under the religion section non-fiction in your opinion?

  6. #6
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
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    No

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    So does that make the Qu'ran, Bhagavad Gita, Book of Mormon and all the other works filed under the religion section non-fiction in your opinion?
    No, just in Dr Dewey's - and he's no longer alive for me to ask him why!
    God exists. Short and to the point.

    Secretary of, and regularly arbiter at, Rooty Hill RSL Chess Club. See www.rootyhillchessclub.org.

    Psephological insight. "Controversial will only lose you votes. Courageous will lose you the election." Sir Humphrey Appleby on Yes Minister.

    Favorite movie line: Girl friend Cathy to Jack Ryan in "Sum of all Fears". "What kind of emergency does an historian have?".

  7. #7
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    Non-fiction works are the works that claim to be true, not just the ones that actually are.

  8. #8
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    Non-fiction works are the works that claim to be true, not just the ones that actually are.
    The corollary here is that there is also more than a grain of truth is many works of fiction.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  9. #9
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski
    At my local public library there are also copies of it (various versions) in the religion section. interestingly, KB, both sections are non-fiction!
    Libraries have an interest in not being burnt to the ground by pseudo-religious extremists, which probably has some impact on their classification systems.

    I suspect that there is a very tricky debate about exactly where the limits of "fiction" vs "non-fiction" lie, eg books in the latter category are often unfactual nonsense, but if they are written under the impression they are true, and not as a matter of knowingly delivering a false scenario, then they do get classed as "non-fiction".

    Whether those writing the books of the Bible knew that some of their tales were a little tall to be taken seriously by an objective observer or not is rather difficult to establish. Hence my comment about the classification being "debatable", which means exactly what it says.

    In my home state it is common for the detractors of the political statements of the acclaimed novelist Richard Flanagan (including me) to refer to him as a "fiction writer" when discussing his political comments and to refer to those comments themselves as fiction. The reason for this is not merely that Flanagan sometimes gets his facts wrong, but also that his style of debate appears to involve reshaping facts into a stylised version of events where the way the version "reads" appears important.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 05-07-2017 at 11:40 AM.
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  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Libraries have an interest in not being burnt to the ground by pseudo-religious extremists, which probably has some impact on their classification systems.
    As if this would happen with the Bible, as opposed to Danish cartoons about Islam.

    You may be a fundy atheist if....

    You believe that Christians burned down the Great Library of Alexandria. When you learn that this was impossible, you assert that it is obvious that Christians did burn a lot of ancient books. When you are shown that this too is false, you wait a while, then make the same claim again, hoping that the person who corrected you with the facts won't notice.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  11. #11
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    You believe that Christians burned down the Great Library of Alexandria.
    Actually I have no idea who did, and can't say that getting to the bottom of whether the frizzling of the Serapeum was really ordered by a Coptic Pope (or not as your link suggests) is all that high on my priorities right now.
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  12. #12
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Actually I have no idea who did, and can't say that getting to the bottom of whether the frizzling of the Serapeum was really ordered by a Coptic Pope (or not as your link suggests) is all that high on my priorities right now.
    No but according to Socrates Scholasticus (5th century Christian historian) and many others, it was christians who killed Hypatia. Waylaid her chariot, stripped her, flayed her flesh from her bones and burnt the remains.

    They had pretty interesting ways of celebrating lent in those days.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    No but according to Socrates Scholasticus (5th century Christian historian) and many others, it was christians who killed Hypatia. Waylaid her chariot, stripped her, flayed her flesh from her bones and burnt the remains.

    They had pretty interesting ways of celebrating lent in those days.
    As the article (by James Hannam, Ph.D. recently completed his Ph.D. on the History of Science at the University of Cambridge) says:


    Socrates reports the murder of the philosopher Hypatia by a Christian mob even though he is clear that this is something he regrets occurred so it is hard to see why he would omit the destruction of a library.

    Hypatia of Alexandria, the female mathematician, has become a romantic heroine, a feminist icon and an archetypal victim of religious intolerance. Charles Kingsley of The Water Babies fame published his novel, Hypatia, in 1853 and it was this that started her modern cult. However the sources for her life are scanty to say the least. Socrates is embarrassed to have to report her murder, John of Nikiou revels in it and the Suda gives a few more details that need to be treated with the same caution as everything else in that Byzantine encyclopaedia. The Christian bishop Synesius of Cyrene was a pupil of hers and despite her paganism wrote her adoring letters asking for advice. Modern myths about her include that she was a Librarian of the Great Library and that she worked at the Museum. Neither have any basis in fact or the sources and there is nothing to connect her to the Royal or Serapeum libraries at all.

    Here is the original from Socrates (in translation of course), which was quite favorable towards her, and showing that he thought the murder was totally contrary to Christianity:

    THERE WAS a woman at Alexandria named Hypatia, daughter of the philosopher Theon, who made such attainments in literature and science, as to far surpass all the philosophers of her own time. Having succeeded to the school of Plato and Plotinus, she explained the principles of philosophy to her auditors, many of whom came from a distance to receive her instructions. On account of the self-possession and ease of manner, which she had acquired in consequence of the cultivation of her mind, she not unfrequently appeared in public in presence of the magistrates. Neither did she feel abashed in going to an assembly of men. For all men on account of her extraordinary dignity and virtue admired her the more. Yet even she fell victim to the political jealousy which at that time prevailed. For as she had frequent interviews with Orestes, it was calumniously reported among the Christian populace, that it was she who prevented Orestes from being reconciled to the bishop. Some of them, therefore, hurried away by a fierce and bigoted zeal, whose ringleader was a reader named Peter, waylaid her returning home, and dragging her from her carriage, they took her to the church called Caesareum, where they completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles.* After tearing her body in pieces, they took her mangled limbs to a place called Cinaron, and there burnt them. This affair brought not the least opprobrium, not only upon Cyril, but also upon the whole Alexandrian church. And surely nothing can be farther from the spirit of Christianity than the allowance of massacres, fights, and transactions of that sort. This happened in the month of March during Lent, in the fourth year of Cyril's episcopate, under the tenth consulate of Honorius, and the sixth of Theodosius.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Actually I have no idea who did, and can't say that getting to the bottom of whether the frizzling of the Serapeum was really ordered by a Coptic Pope (or not as your link suggests) is all that high on my priorities right now.
    What Coptic Pope? And it's fine for you not to care, but then don't make silly cracks about burning down libraries in the present day.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  15. #15
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    So does that make the Qu'ran, Bhagavad Gita, Book of Mormon and all the other works filed under the religion section non-fiction in your opinion?
    According to Manga, since they claim to be true, then yes. Of course, unlike the Bible, their claims are false.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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