View Poll Results: How will you vote (or have you voted) in the Marriage Law Postal Survey

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  • Yes

    15 62.50%
  • No

    4 16.67%
  • Not voting (not enrolled)

    4 16.67%
  • Not voting (not interested or can't decide)

    0 0%
  • Not voting (boycotting survey)

    1 4.17%
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  1. #1096
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    So you cling to single word "present", which is not that relevant in the discussion, pretend it the mostly important word, effectively misrepresenting my position. Then you claim I misstated yours. Very clever indeed.
    D - Any married couple meets a necessary condition for having children - presence of a man and a woman.
    KB - That is not a necessary condition since children can be had through IVF using the donor sperm of a father who is not "present" in the relationship or indeed at all...

    I suggest the only reason that you're still discussing this point at all is because you lack either the integrity or intelligence to correct yourself.

    I happen to like Gloria Jeans coffee quite a lot, and was disappointed when my local closed down recently and I have to go elsewhere.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  2. #1097
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Pax,
    Read an article in Wikipedia about status of churches in Denmark first.
    What about it? The Church of Denmark is run by the government. Therefore the government can make rules concerning its operation. The same-sex marriage laws will not, as far as I am aware, impose any obligation on the Catholic or any other non-state church.

  3. #1098
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner
    D - Any married couple meets a necessary condition for having children - presence of a man and a woman.
    KB - That is not a necessary condition since children can be had through IVF using the donor sperm of a father who is not "present" in the relationship or indeed at all...

    I suggest the only reason that you're still discussing this point at all is because you lack either the integrity or intelligence to correct yourself.
    I doubt you can be the one talking about integrity. I did not mention "relationship", just a simple and, I thought, uncontested biological fact. Whether father is "present" in the way you and KB want to understand it is immaterial.
    I understand that PC crowd is upset by that biological fact, cannot even say I regret it.
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  4. #1099
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    I doubt you can be the one talking about integrity. I did not mention "relationship", just a simple and, I thought, uncontested biological fact. Whether father is "present" in the way you and KB want to understand it is immaterial.
    Excellent, you have completely retracted your necessary condition and agree that the father's presence is immaterial. I know it was hard for you, but you got there in the end, so good for you.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  5. #1100
    CC International Master Goughfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Hardly surprising considering the links between Gloria Jeans and the Hillsong church
    Indeed. Some may remember Gloria Jeans quite actively supporting Mercy Ministries, a rehab centre for young women with a range of issues. Among other horrific stories, it was revealed that the staff conducted exorcisms to try to cure patients of various illnesses. After stories came out in the media, Mercy Ministries shut their doors and both Hillsong church and Gloria Jeans distanced themselves from the organisation. Mercy Ministries were later ordered to pay over one thousand ex-patients compensation for misleading and deceptive conduct.

    I'm not sure whether it is still the case, but at least at one point in time the CEO of Gloria Jeans was a very prominent elder at Hillsong.
    "People with guns don't understand. That's why they get guns. Too many misunderstandings." - Jerry Seinfeld, The Little Kicks

  6. #1101
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Well, I better tell my friends to support Gloria Jeans
    I'd boycott them for life over that but I'd hardly ever go there anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    So you cling to single word "present", which is not that relevant in the discussion, pretend it the mostly important word, effectively misrepresenting my position.
    In other news I ride unicorns down the street at sundown. Film at 11.

    There are two parts to this part of the discussion. The first is your "necessary condition" claim in #1044 by itself, and the second is the idea that your "necessary condition" claim matters even after it has been repaired. I would argue that the latter is actually the more important part; I addressed that at length in #1062 (first para) and you are welcome to make a relevant response to my comments there should you wish to do so.

    If you want to continue losing the argument about your "necessary condition" while falsely accusing me of clinging to that part, and hence falsely accusing me of misrepresenting you, and hypocritically misrepresenting me (again) in the process, that's your problem.
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  7. #1102
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    More proof that the GayStapo are lying about religious exemptions

    Cameron CANNOT protect Church against gay marriage laws (says his own Justice minister)

    Daily Mail (UK) 13 June 2012

    David Cameron’s promise to protect churches from gay marriage laws could hit legal hurdles, a justice minister admitted yesterday.

    Crispin Blunt said it would be hard to guarantee that clergy would not face court challenges if they refused to preside over same-sex unions.

    ‘We’re seeking to protect, indeed, proscribe religious organisations from offering gay marriage,’ said Mr Blunt, who announced two years ago that he is gay.

    ‘That may be problematic legally, but the proposal the Government are putting forward is that marriage should be equal in the eyes of the state whether it’s between a same-sex couple or between a man and a woman. We’ll have to see what happens with that.’

    Mr Blunt’s comments appear to undermine reassurances from both Downing Street and Home Secretary Theresa May yesterday that churches will not be affected by the law.

    The remarks will be seized on by critics who insist that legalising gay marriage will eventually force bishops to accept same-sex marriages.

    Government ministers yesterday insisted the controversial change would go ahead by 2015, despite a ferocious backlash that saw the Roman Catholic Church join the Church of England in condemning the move.

    Catholic leaders told ministers that they do not believe Coalition guarantees of protection.

    The European Court of Human Rights is likely to overturn the promised safeguards meant to assure churches they will never have to conduct gay weddings, they said. The statements came in a fiercely-worded response to the consultation on same-sex marriage that is due to end tomorrow. …
    Promises of exemptions are just lies by the homonazis to hoodwink naive churchians that they won't be affected, so their bill will be passed. Once this is done, the exemptions will be challenged. After all, if the government has the power to grant exceptions, then it also has the power to remove them.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 19-06-2012 at 10:42 AM.
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  8. #1103
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    I'm a gay man who opposes gay marriage. Does that make ME a bigot, Mr Cameron?
    By ANDREW PIERCE
    Daily Mail, 15 June 2012



    Perhaps the Prime Minister has calculated that anyone who stands up and argues against his proposals will be branded a homophobe and a bigot.

    Well, Mr Cameron, I am a Conservative and a homosexual, and I oppose gay marriage. Am I a bigot?

    And what about Alan Duncan, the first Conservative MP to come out as gay? Mr Duncan, the International Aid Minister who is in a civil partnership, is implacably opposed to gay marriage.

    So is Dr David Starkey, the celebrated historian, who is openly gay.

    The Labour MP Ben Bradshaw, meanwhile, who was the first Cabinet minister to enter into a civil partnership, is contemptuous of Mr Cameron’s motive for smashing down centuries of traditional Church teaching in reference to marriage.

    ‘This isn’t a priority for the gay community, which has already won equal rights with civil partnerships,’ says Bradshaw. ‘This is pure politics.’ …

    The Treasury estimates that six per cent of the population, or 3.7 million people, is gay. Yet I understand the Government’s Equalities office, having approached a polling company to test the opinion of the gay community, then decided not to go ahead.

    Were the officials worried what the conclusions might be? None of my gay friends want gay marriage to be written into law. …
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 19-06-2012 at 10:50 AM.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  9. #1104
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    That would depend on his reasons for denying homosexual couples the same rights as heterosexual couples. Lamentably, the article did not provide them although it seems that it might have something to do with his catholic upbringing.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #1105
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    That would depend on his reasons for denying homosexual couples the same rights as heterosexual couples. Lamentably, the article did not provide them although it seems that it might have something to do with his catholic upbringing.
    He makes it clear that he disagrees with their teaching on homosexual behaviour. However, he is grateful that they placed him for adoption, and is angry that the GayStapo forced Catholic adoption agencies to close.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  11. #1106
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    He makes it clear that he disagrees with their teaching on homosexual behaviour. However, he is grateful that they placed him for adoption, and is angry that the GayStapo forced Catholic adoption agencies to close.
    If that is the reason for disagreeing with gay marriage then I would say he is disagreeing "on principle" rather than for any logical reason.

    Regarding the adoption agency thing. Adoption is not a religious service and so if the catholic church cannot provide a service which is in keeping with societal norms then they should keep out of it.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  12. #1107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Cameron CANNOT protect Church against gay marriage laws (says his own Justice minister)

    Daily Mail (UK) 13 June 2012

    [INDENT]David Cameron’s promise to protect churches from gay marriage laws could hit legal hurdles, a justice minister admitted yesterday.

    Crispin Blunt said it would be hard to guarantee that clergy would not face court challenges if they refused to preside over same-sex unions.
    Please provide examples of divorcees, atheists, members of other faiths or anyone else who have successfully sued any Church over the denial of the "right" to marry in a Church. This is a complete non-issue. Where is the outcry over Churches being "forced" to marry any heterosexual couple who wants to marry in a church?

  13. #1108
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    I see Pierce has been suckered by the Catholic Voice polling. It was not a poll of "550 gay men and women" as he claims, but a poll including about that many who self-identified as one of gay, lesbian, bisexual or other, as I already mentioned.

    As for the whole "bigot" thing I'm not sure where that's coming from since there's no reference to Cameron using the term in the article, just an assumption about what Cameron might be thinking.

    This kind of reverse identity-politics doesn't prove anything anyway. Would Jono be quoting an article by a Christian who said that they opposed religious homeschooling? Or how about a Jew who opposed Israel? (Bobby Fischer was the latter and he was certainly a bigot). The existence of any gay people who wish to have access to the right is sufficient reason for the right to be granted. What other gay people think doesn't matter - if they don't want to marry their partners they don't have to.
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  14. #1109
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Some good news from America:
    A day after electing their first African-American president, Southern Baptists passed a resolution opposing the idea that same-sex marriage is a civil rights issue.

    Thousands of delegates at the denomination's annual meeting in New Orleans on Wednesday were nearly unanimous.

    It affirms Southern Baptist belief that marriage is "the exclusive union of one man and one woman" and that "all sexual behavior outside of marriage is sinful."

    It acknowledges that gays and lesbians sometimes experience "unique struggles" but declares that they lack the "distinguishing features of classes entitled to special protections."

    The nation's largest Protestant denomination is attempting to broaden its appeal beyond its traditional white Southern base. At the same time, leaders said they feel it is important to take a public stand on their opposition to same-sex marriage.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  15. #1110
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Let it be noted for future reference that Southern Baptists sometimes experience unique struggles but lack the distinguishing features of classes entitled to special protections. Let them reap what they sow.
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