View Poll Results: Who will win? (This poll asks who will win, not who do you want to win)

Voters
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  • Clinton (350+ EC votes)

    2 18.18%
  • Clinton (300-349 EC votes)

    5 45.45%
  • Clinton (270-299 EC votes)

    2 18.18%
  • Trump (270-299 EC votes)

    0 0%
  • Trump (300-349 EC votes) - CORRECT

    1 9.09%
  • Trump (350+ EC votes)

    1 9.09%
  • No electoral college majority

    0 0%
  • Someone else

    0 0%
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  1. #5371
    Batoutahelius road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Whataboutism doesn't excuse Moore.
    I seem to recall mrs Jono Fan was rather fond of cries of Tu quoque. Maybe she can explain it to him.
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  2. #5372
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    I seem to recall mrs Jono Fan was rather fond of cries of Tu quoque. Maybe she can explain it to him.
    Whataboutism is just an diversionary tactic. The real story is that white evangelicals used to take the high road and say private indiscretion disqualified someone from public office. However, nowadays they turn the other way...

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    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #5373
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Whataboutism doesn't excuse Moore.
    This was not whataboutism, but a clear example of leftard hypocrisy when it came to credible and ongoing accusations of sexual abuse, compared to dubious claims that have conveniently surfaced 40 years after the supposed events, just in time to derail the campaign of one who defeated a RINO establishment pick.
    1. In the USA, state after state votes to keep marriage as it's always been.
    The Left: judges should overrule the people.

    2. In Australia, the people vote to allow gay marriage.
    The Left: the minority should shut up and let the majority have its way.

  4. #5374
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Whataboutism is just an diversionary tactic. The real story is that white evangelicals used to take the high road and say private indiscretion disqualified someone from public office. However, nowadays they turn the other way...
    Suppose you were right—you should be happy that Evangelicals have gone with the flow, as the Left always grouse that they should do. They are the ones who said character didn't matter when it came to Clinton, so they should stop whinging.

    But voting for Trump against Hillary (not to be confused with Trump vs other Republicans in the primaries) was not approval of his poor character, just an assessment that he was not as bad as Hillary.

    And when it comes to Moore, it is not a denial of the seriousness of the accusation, but a questioning of whether these 40yo accusations that have surfaced only now are true.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 16-11-2017 at 03:26 AM.
    1. In the USA, state after state votes to keep marriage as it's always been.
    The Left: judges should overrule the people.

    2. In Australia, the people vote to allow gay marriage.
    The Left: the minority should shut up and let the majority have its way.

  5. #5375
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    What a surprise, the über-left Slate claims Moore was lying, not questioning why these accusations were not raised a long time ago when Moore first began to be a public figure.

    IF they are true (and what a big IF, as Darwin would say), then and only then is Moore disqualified for public office—for this and for lying about it now.
    1. In the USA, state after state votes to keep marriage as it's always been.
    The Left: judges should overrule the people.

    2. In Australia, the people vote to allow gay marriage.
    The Left: the minority should shut up and let the majority have its way.

  6. #5376
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Not a tu quoque argument, but finally the Left admit that they erred re Clinton

    Bill Clinton should have resigned
    What he did to Monica Lewinsky was wrong, and he should have paid the price.
    Updated by Matthew Yglesias, Vox, 15 Nov 2017

    Many years ago, when I was a high school student making my first visit to Washington for a two-week summer camp for weird politics dorks, the dominant news story was then-President Bill Clinton’s August 17, 1998, admission that despite earlier denials, he “did have a relationship with Miss Lewinsky that was not appropriate.”

    At the time I, like most Americans, was glad to see Clinton prevail and regarded the whole sordid matter as primarily the fault of congressional Republicans’ excessive scandal-mongering. Now, looking back after the election of Donald Trump, the revelations of massive sexual harassment scandals at Fox News, the stories about Harvey Weinstein and others in the entertainment industry, and the stories about Roy Moore’s pursuit of sexual relationships with teenagers, I think we got it wrong. We argued about perjury and adultery and the meaning of the word “is.” Republicans prosecuted a bad case against a president they’d been investigating for years.

    What we should have talked about was men abusing their social and economic power over younger and less powerful women.

    The United States, and perhaps the broader English-speaking world, is currently undergoing a much-needed accountability moment in which each wave of stories emboldens more people to come forward and more institutions to rethink their practices. Looking back, the 1998 revelation that the president of the United States carried on an affair with an intern could have been that moment.

    It was far from the most egregious case of workplace sexual misconduct in American history. But it was unusually high-profile, the facts were not in dispute, the perpetrator had a lot of nominal feminist ideological commitments, and political leaders who shared those commitments had the power to force him from office. Had he resigned in shame, we all might have made a collective cultural and political decision that a person caught leveraging power over women in inappropriate ways ought to be fired. Instead, we lost nearly two decades.

    Instead, Democrats embraced the narrative that the wrongdoing, though real, was ultimately not serious — or at a minimum, not a matter of public concern.

    This was a mistake. Clinton admitted he was wrong but stayed tellingly cagey as to what exactly was wrong about it, before implicitly sliding to the stance that the problem was marital infidelity. Marriages, of course, really are private and, as they say, complicated. By the broader issue of men in general abusing positions of power to obtain sexual gratification is most certainly not a trivial issue or a private matter. If word had gotten back to the White House of an unmarried Cabinet secretary having a clandestine affair with one of his interns, the administration might have taken action or (perhaps more likely) might have tried to cover it up. But they certainly wouldn’t have played dumb and pretended not to see that there was a problem.

    The Lewinsky case, however, is important precisely because the facts are not in dispute. Cases that involve unprovable, years-old allegations of assault pose an inherently difficult problem for almost any institution. But what’s striking about the charges leveled in recent months against Harvey Weinstein, Louis C.K., Leon Wieseltier, and so many others is the extent to which misconduct was an “open secret” in the relevant communities.

    They kept getting away with it not because nobody knew, but because the people who knew treated it just how the American public treated Clinton’s abusive behavior — as something that was maybe wrong but fundamentally unimportant compared to an important man’s work.

    Most of all, as a citizen I’ve come to see that the scandal was never about infidelity or perjury — or at least, it shouldn’t have been. It was about power in the workplace and its use. The policy case that Democrats needed Clinton in office was weak, and the message that driving him from office would have sent would have been profound and welcome. That this view was not commonplace at the time shows that we did not, as a society, give the most important part of the story the weight it deserved.

    As the current accountability moment grows, we ought to recognize and admit that we had a chance to do this almost 20 years ago — potentially sparing countless young women a wide range of unpleasant and discriminatory experiences, or at a minimum reducing their frequency and severity. And we blew it.
    1. In the USA, state after state votes to keep marriage as it's always been.
    The Left: judges should overrule the people.

    2. In Australia, the people vote to allow gay marriage.
    The Left: the minority should shut up and let the majority have its way.

  7. #5377
    Batoutahelius road runner's Avatar
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    "Not a tu quoque argument, but "

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  8. #5378
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    "Not a tu quoque argument, but "

    Taking "but" the Queensland way, as opposed to using it to mean "instead"? In reality, the argument was not that Clinton doing wrong makes it OK for Moore to do wrong (that would be tu quoque), but that the Left are now admitting that they have contributed majorly to a culture where sexual abuse is condoned if it is one of "our" side.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 16-11-2017 at 08:52 AM.
    1. In the USA, state after state votes to keep marriage as it's always been.
    The Left: judges should overrule the people.

    2. In Australia, the people vote to allow gay marriage.
    The Left: the minority should shut up and let the majority have its way.

  9. #5379
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Left can't be taken seriously when they supported Bill over more credible accusations

    Spare Us Your Outrage Over Roy Moore If You Put An Alleged Rapist In The White House
    Liberals must finally admit that they put an accused rapist in the White House and that they were wrong for doing so.
    Matt Walsh (himself a staunch Trump critic), Daily Wire, 14 Nov 2017

    The "what about" game gets tired after a while.

    This country is overstocked with hypocrites so there's always a "what about" available. Whatever a person is pretending to believe or care about today, you can almost certainly find an example in the not-so-distant past when they didn't believe or care about that thing at all. We're all moral relativists now. Most of us, anyway. At a certain point, if you want to move any conversation forward, you just have to accept the fact that the two sides in whatever debate have been chosen solely for expedience. Nobody cares about the truth. Nobody has integrity. They're all full of it. And there's almost no reason to point it out anymore.

    Almost, I say. Almost. Because even amidst the orgy of hypocrites, there are some hypocrisies so blatant and morally reprehensible that I don't think we can simply slide past them. Especially this one particular hypocrisy, which I would argue gave birth to the current hyper-partisan environment where voters are willing to tolerate literally any misbehavior from a politician, so long as the politician has the right letter next to his name. It truly seems like this hypocrisy was the beginning of some kind of sickness in our culture. It may be worthwhile, in that case, to revisit it. So, while even I'm tired of the "what about Clinton" game, I must say: seriously though, what about Clinton?

    The Roy Moore allegations have of course prompted a lot of laughably self-righteous blathering from the Left. Suddenly these people have decided that every sex assault or rape accuser must be believed, every accusation against a prominent man must be given the undivided attention of the entire country, and any man accused of these crimes must be drummed out of public life. Democrat politicians have been especially eager to climb the soapbox and lecture Republican voters about the "danger" of electing such a man. The media has fished through Moore's closet to find skeletons of past sexual improprieties, again showing their ability to do investigative journalism only when the investigation may have politically advantageous results.

    So, what are we supposed to do here? Are we supposed to just ignore and forget the fact that these very same people twice elected an alleged rapist to the White House, and then, just last year, tried to elect his wife, who reportedly intimidated and silenced the accusers? Are we supposed to allow the Left to pretend that the last 3 decades they spent bowing to the Clinton Machine never happened? Are we really supposed to take anything they say about Roy Moore seriously? How can we? Even if I wanted to, I don't know how.

    How many of these liberals, who are apoplectic about a guy with a potentially unsavory past becoming a Senator in Alabama, expressed any reservations at all about making a potential rapist President of the United States? How many Democrat politicians, currently fainting over the Moore allegations, ever whispered the faintest protest against Clinton, the alleged serial sex predator? I wonder even how many establishment Republicans, who are quick to disavow Moore, ever said a single word about Clinton's rape accusations?

    And even after they have made these mea culpas, they must realize that they are in no position at all to pass judgment on Roy Moore's supporters. Leave that to the folks who didn't put an alleged rapist in the Oval Office. You have forever forfeited your right to be morally outraged by these kinds of things. Go away and be silent. Or keep talking if you wish, but realize that we can't take you seriously. You didn't care at all about rape accusations for 30 years. You can't start now, when it's convenient. Even in a land of hypocrites, that's a bridge too far.
    1. In the USA, state after state votes to keep marriage as it's always been.
    The Left: judges should overrule the people.

    2. In Australia, the people vote to allow gay marriage.
    The Left: the minority should shut up and let the majority have its way.

  10. #5380
    CC Grandmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Spare Us Your Outrage Over Roy Moore If You Put An Alleged Rapist In The White House Liberals must finally admit that they put an accused rapist in the White House and that they were wrong for doing so. Matt Walsh (himself a staunch Trump critic), Daily Wire, 14 Nov 2017

    The "what about" game gets tired after a while. …
    It certainly does! I didn't realise that Ted Cruz, who has also condemned Moore, was a Clinton supporter

    But 'whataboutism' works both ways - Capablanca-Fan can't be taken seriously in his criticism of Clinton after his support of Trump and Moore.

  11. #5381
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    And when it comes to Moore, it is not a denial of the seriousness of the accusation, but a questioning of whether these 40yo accusations that have surfaced only now are true.
    How many accusers, mothers of accusers, notes written by Moore in yearbooks, etc would it take for you to think that these stories might be true?
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  12. #5382
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    It certainly does! I didn't realise that Ted Cruz, who has also condemned Moore, was a Clinton supporter
    Also Jeff Sessions, the Alabamian, Trump-appointed, head of the DOJ said he had no reason to doubt the testimony of the accusers. I guess he is another Clinton supporter.

    https://news.vice.com/story/jeff-ses...se-young-women
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #5383
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Spare Us Your Outrage Over Roy Moore If You Put An Alleged Rapist In The White House
    Liberals must finally admit that they put an accused rapist in the White House and that they were wrong for doing so.
    Matt Walsh (himself a staunch Trump critic), Daily Wire, 14 Nov 2017
    Whataboutism doesn't excuse Moore.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  14. #5384
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    It certainly does! I didn't realise that Ted Cruz, who has also condemned Moore, was a Clinton supporter
    As I said, very disappointed in Cruz, especially after he was the victim of unfounded accusations himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    But 'whataboutism' works both ways - Capablanca-Fan can't be taken seriously in his criticism of Clinton after his support of Trump and Moore.
    More nonsense about Moore. I do NOT excuse Moore for sex crimes; I just doubt the accusers' credibility in coming forth now, after Moore defeated the RINO Establishment pick. After all, it turns out that one of his accusers was before him as a judge in her divorce case. So why did she not accuse him then, when it would be grounds for recusal, before he dismissed her case?

    When it came to Trump, I opposed him in the Primaries, and supported him only as the lesser evil against the woman who covered up her husband's sex crimes and vilified his accusers, who were much more credible than Moore's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Also Jeff Sessions, the Alabamian, Trump-appointed, head of the DOJ said he had no reason to doubt the testimony of the accusers. I guess he is another Clinton supporter.
    For some time now, he has proven himself to be another swamp creature, e.g. ramping up civil asset forfeiture.
    1. In the USA, state after state votes to keep marriage as it's always been.
    The Left: judges should overrule the people.

    2. In Australia, the people vote to allow gay marriage.
    The Left: the minority should shut up and let the majority have its way.

  15. #5385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    More nonsense about Moore. I do NOT excuse Moore for sex crimes; I just doubt the accusers' credibility in coming forth now, after Moore defeated the RINO Establishment pick.
    So you are sticking to your claim that all of the people who have accused Moore of pursuing teenage girls (and possibly worse) are part of a huge conspiracy against him? That not one of the claims is true? That Moore never had a relationship with any teenage girls when he was in his 30s?

    If it's a conspiracy, then it's amazing that no one has admitted to being asked to fabricate allegations. And if it's a conspiracy, why doesn't Moore state, under oath, that he has never, as an adult, had a relationship with a teenage girl? Instead he won't even deny the allegations in a press conference! No wonder he's in trouble in the polls.

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