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  1. #91
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Shame about that, thanks for the game. It was an interesting one in a line I haven't seen before.

    Early in the game I tried to employ a similar clamp strategy to that I have used with success in non-freestyle CC games against Axiom's Possum (although the idea was originally suggested by a computer!). After all the line white played is basically a possum with an extra tempo but with non-f4 options removed! My approach seemed to be working very well but either I was underestimating white's attack all along or else I made some sloppy moves, because white had quite a strong attack in the middlegame and there wasn't much I could do except fiddle around and hope the attack didn't squash me. In particular I was quite concerned that 16.Bf1 probably gave white at least a slight advantage and was relieved to only get the less active 16.Bh1 against which I thought I was OK. Even then there were some nervous moments and I was glad when everything liquidated to an ending that seemed just a shade better for me and certainly without any danger.

    I thought 27.Kc3 was a mistake by white and 27.Kd1 was much safer. I think that was a turning point from a very likely draw to serious winning chances for black.

    I'd be very interested in spectator opinions on whether the final position is or is not objectively won for black. I fiddled around with this ending a lot and I am sceptical that it is won, although I am convinced that black has serious practical chances even in a freestyle situation - by timing out justaknight has saved himself from months of being tortured as I tried to see if I could win it. However, perhaps there's a simple plan I've overlooked.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 17-12-2008 at 09:38 PM.

  2. #92
    CC International Master
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    I guess that depends on how ugly things get for white's king. If the king gets trapped after winning the a pawn, I would have guessed a win. If the king can get the a pawn and get back out to safety, I guess a draw.
    Last edited by Aaron Guthrie; 18-12-2008 at 12:53 AM.

  3. #93
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Draw IMO.
    meep meep

  4. #94
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    I guess that depends on how ugly things get for white's king. If the king gets trapped after winning the a pawn, I would have guessed a win. If the king can get the a pawn and get back out to safety, I guess a draw.
    As far as I can tell if white immediately goes for the a-pawn giving up the d-pawn in the process he loses. After 48.Kb5 Rxd4 49.Kxa5 Kd6 the bishop must move and black gets ...c5 and can then get the rook to the b-file and the king up, winning.

    What is more testing is if white refuses to go for the c-pawn immediately and plays 48.Kc5. If Black is careful about exactly how it is done (it depends on the exact position of white's pieces) it seems that black can get the rook to the b-file without giving white a chance to safely take the a-pawn first. The problem I have found is that in a position with the white king on c5, the black rook on the b-file, all the pawns still on the board, and white's bishop being very very careful where it goes, there doesn't seem to be a way to force any progress, even when the black king is brought up into the equation. So that's why I think it is probably drawn with perfect play, but I could be wrong.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    As far as I can tell if white immediately goes for the a-pawn giving up the d-pawn in the process he loses. After 48.Kb5 Rxd4 49.Kxa5 Kd6 the bishop must move and black gets ...c5 and can then get the rook to the b-file and the king up, winning.
    I though white could get it for free; Kc5-d5-Kb5, but I guess black can stop that with Rb4.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    The problem I have found is that in a position with the white king on c5, the black rook on the b-file, all the pawns still on the board, and white's bishop being very very careful where it goes, there doesn't seem to be a way to force any progress, even when the black king is brought up into the equation. So that's why I think it is probably drawn with perfect play, but I could be wrong.
    Without either of the a pawns it is a win for black. Usually the extra pawn would be a disadvantage for white, but it might be an advantage here; strong point for the bishop, and the black a pawn isn't healthy.

    edit- just had a bit of a look at it. One way (may not be the only way) to win it (assuming the pawn goes to d5) without the a pawns is to just to get a winning king and pawn ending by taking the d pawn with the rook. Doing so with the a pawns on the board will lead to a drawn ending if the white king is ready to take the a pawn when this happens.
    Last edited by Aaron Guthrie; 18-12-2008 at 10:54 PM.

  6. #96
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    As far as I can tell if white immediately goes for the a-pawn giving up the d-pawn in the process he loses. After 48.Kb5 Rxd4 49.Kxa5 Kd6 the bishop must move and black gets ...c5 and can then get the rook to the b-file and the king up, winning.
    The position after Kxa5 is a six piece tablebase win for black. Mate in 23.

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