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  1. #61
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    It seems you fall into the same trap that Sowell did in classifying party alignment by whether their economic policies and ignore what it actually means to be left- or right-wing.
    Don't blame me if your definitions are sloppy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I realise this is tempting for you but unfortunately you can't undertake this level of revisionism and expect to get away with it. Any right-wing party you don't like you can just say "oh policy xyz" is leftist and therefore <insert party leaders name here> was a 'leftist'.
    Yet I documented just how many Nazi policies were leftist, as was their name. You just fall back on lame assertions that they must be right-wing because people have called them that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    That's just the woolly headed thinking you get when a Republican mouthpiece who specialises in economics starts to rewrite political definitions to suit their own agenda.
    Sowell is often strongly critical of the Republicans.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  2. #62
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Sowell is often strongly critical of the Republicans.
    Probably just the left-wing ones.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #63
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Probably just the left-wing ones.
    Definitely, as he should be, e.g. McCain, but also some of the gutless right-wing ones who are incompetent at articulating their position, never expressing outrage, their rapid fall from their 2004 victories, and their pathetic ineptitude at reaching Blacks.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  4. #64
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    I think this topic is stupid. Why does it matter? Nazis were monters, mass murdering blood thirsty maniacs who killed millions of people and started a war. The were evil, not left wing, not right wing, just evil.
    Scott

  5. #65
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    I think this topic is stupid. Why does it matter? Nazis were monters, mass murdering blood thirsty maniacs who killed millions of people and started a war. The were evil, not left wing, not right wing, just evil.
    I guess that makes sense if you think they were some freak event which was entirely unpredictable. However social phenomena can be traced to earlier influences and examining those influences can lead to a deeper understanding of such phenomena and potentially help to avoid repeating phenomena which is detrimental to society as a whole.

    The trouble with right-wing analysts like Sowell and right-wing idiots like Jono is they think that calling Hitler a right-wing politician taints the whole right with the extreme policies of Hitler and the National Socialists. So they do a little revisionism, define right and left wing by economic policy alone and then declare the right-wing purged of any sins.

    It is the same trick Jono employed in vain to deny that Hitler and the German people were Christians. Jono would have you believe that some times earlier in the 1930s all German speaking people suddenly switched from 95% christians to neo-pagans and then in 1945 all switched back again. It is just a ridiculous proposition.

    Hitler was a right-wing catholic. Get over it already.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  6. #66
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Definitely
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I guess that makes sense if you think they were some freak event which was entirely unpredictable. However social phenomena can be traced to earlier influences and examining those influences can lead to a deeper understanding of such phenomena and potentially help to avoid repeating phenomena which is detrimental to society as a whole.

    The trouble with right-wing analysts like Sowell and right-wing idiots like Jono is they think that calling Hitler a right-wing politician taints the whole right with the extreme policies of Hitler and the National Socialists. So they do a little revisionism, define right and left wing by economic policy alone and then declare the right-wing purged of any sins.

    It is the same trick Jono employed in vain to deny that Hitler and the German people were Christians. Jono would have you believe that some times earlier in the 1930s all German speaking people suddenly switched from 95% christians to neo-pagans and then in 1945 all switched back again. It is just a ridiculous proposition.

    Hitler was a right-wing catholic. Get over it already.
    Hitler may have been a right-wing catholic, but Nazism and mass murdering people is neither right wing or christian or left wing or anything else.
    I am not arguing the same thing Jono is and I don't like it that you are trying to put me in with him. I hardly ever agree with anything he says.
    Scott

  8. #68
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    I am not arguing the same thing Jono is and I don't like it that you are trying to put me in with him.
    I'm pretty sure he isn't.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I'm pretty sure he isn't.
    The last line.

  10. #70
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    The last line.
    That was directed to western civilisation in general not you in particular. However I think both you and Jono need to accept the truth of that line but haven't yet done so, but perhaps to different degrees.

    You and Jono have different positions and so I'm not lumping you together. However I think both position are potentially dangerous:

    Jono's revisionism is dangerous because it does not recognise the potential danger in right-wing ideologies such as tradition and nationalism which can be used to justify racism.

    Your position of claiming such classifications are meaningless is dangerous because it seeks to downplay the lessons of history which often condemns civilisation to a repeat lecture.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    That was directed to western civilisation in general not you in particular. However I think both you and Jono need to accept the truth of that line but haven't yet done so, but perhaps to different degrees.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    You and Jono have different positions and so I'm not lumping you together. However I think both position are potentially dangerous:
    Okay

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Jono's revisionism is dangerous because it does not recognise the potential danger in right-wing ideologies such as tradition and nationalism which can be used to justify racism.
    I will let Jono deal with that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Your position of claiming such classifications are meaningless is dangerous because it seeks to downplay the lessons of history which often condemns civilisation to a repeat lecture.
    I have been more surprised by what Jono has been saying and his worrying about being identified on the same side as Hitler. That is just nonsense, he is nothing like Hitler and as far as right wing in Australia goes I don't think any politican is anything like Hitler. So Hitler was not right wing as we would generally use the term in Australian politics, he was a monster. He may have used perverted right wing thinking or perverted left wing thinking or perverted christian thinking to try and justify in his mind the actions he was taking but really he was just a monster whose thinking has nothing in common with any of our politicans as far as I know.
    Scott

  12. #72
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    I have been more surprised by what Jono has been saying and his worrying about being identified on the same side as Hitler. That is just nonsense, he is nothing like Hitler and as far as right wing in Australia goes I don't think any politican is anything like Hitler. So Hitler was not right wing as we would generally use the term in Australian politics, he was a monster. He may have used perverted right wing thinking or perverted left wing thinking or perverted christian thinking to try and justify in his mind the actions he was taking but really he was just a monster whose thinking has nothing in common with any of our politicans as far as I know.
    Yes Hitler was extreme right-wing however there are parallels which can be drawn.

    For example, the One Nation party were widely criticised for their policies on foreign ownership and immigration. While I would not equate Pauline Hanson, David Ettridge or David Oldfield with Hitler. But it is certainly further down that path than the centre right parties like the Liberals.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Yes Hitler was extreme right-wing however there are parallels which can be drawn.

    For example, the One Nation party were widely criticised for their policies on foreign ownership and immigration. While I would not equate Pauline Hanson, David Ettridge or David Oldfield with Hitler. But it is certainly further down that path than the centre right parties like the Liberals.
    I don't think that there is anything fundamental to right wing thinking that says you must be a mass murdering antisemitc war starting monster, that is my point. I have no real problem with Hitler being called extreme right-wing, but it is not right wing as Jono is, nothing like the same.
    Scott

  14. #74
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Colliver
    I don't think that there is anything fundamental to right wing thinking that says you must be a mass murdering antisemitc war starting monster, that is my point. I have no real problem with Hitler being called extreme right-wing, but it is not right wing as Jono is, nothing like the same.
    Scott
    That's fine but I would point out that calling Hitler extreme right-wing is not controversial. That is what is used by nearly everyone. It is Sowell and (on this board by cut-and-paste) Jono who is trying to substantiate the claim highly unorthodox claim that Hitler is left-wing.

    As I said already Sowell's whole argument is one based on economic policy which is a very narrow way to classify people or parties as left- or right-wing and certainly not as broad as the usual definition. After all it isn't Hitler's economic policies that people generally find to have been the most repugnant part of his platform.

    In my view Sowell's argument is very shallow special pleading and Jono's defense of the same boils down to the No True Scotsman fallacy to redefine everyone's political alignment based purely on their economic policy.

    I can understand why Sowell might think economics and politics are the same thing. I'm not sure why Jono has made the same mistaken except that Jono seems to be particularly smitten with Sowell.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  15. #75
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    There seems to be a consensus that Nazism was a mass murdering (and, as such, extremist) political regime. Is the argument about it being left/right wing based on resemblance to (or extremity of) policies of modern left/right? or right/left at the time?

    Jono argument is that Nazi's ideology was based on government being supreme to individual economically, as well as politically and socially. (hence extreme left wing)
    Rincewind argument is that Nazi's ideology was based on nationalism (hence extreme right wing).

    Are there any other criteria both sides want to apply?
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