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  1. #46
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Jono, I could not give a shit what Thomas Sowell says, when are you going to say something on behalf of yourself for a change

  2. #47
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    If by conservatism you mean belief in free markets, limited government, and traditional morality, including religious influences, then these are all things that the Fascists opposed just as much as the Left does today.

    This demonstrates part of Sowell's confusion. The right are not defined as simply advocates of free-markets. In fact in the 19th century the right were generally opposed to capitalism and free-markets and were more about support for Monarchism and the existing social order provided by the gentry. It is only a post industrial revolution idea that the capitalists become the new gentry capitalism and free-markets were advocated by the moderate right.

    But don;t just take my word for it, you could look at what Stephen Fisher (Lecturer in Politics at Oxford) wrote for the Oxford Dictionary of Politics...

    Oxford Dictionary of Politics: right(-wing)

    The opposite of left. As with the term left-wing, the label right-wing has many connotations which vary over time and are often only understood within the particular political context. In advanced liberal democracies, perhaps more than anything else the right has been defined in opposition to socialism or social democracy. As a result, the ideologies and philosophies of right-wing political parties have included elements of conservatism, Christian democracy, liberalism, libertarianism, and nationalism; and for extreme-right parties racism and fascism. As the policy platforms of parties have varied, so has the popular conception of the left-right dimension. In surveys, self-placement on a ‘left-right’ scale is associated with attitudes on economic policy, especially redistribution and privatization/ nationalization, post-materialism, and (particularly in Catholic countries) religiosity.

    — Stephen Fisher
    (emphasis added)

    So as you can see the particular details of platforms change over time but fascism (of which Nazism is a subset) is extreme-right not left.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #48
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    The fact remains that the National Socialists were big-government authoritarians, with nothing in common with modern conservatives and libertarians. The undoubted Left in the West viewed the fascists as fellow travellers before their invasions, since they had many policies in common. The National Socialists were not the "opposite" of the Communist Left, but fought over the same ideological territory.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

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  4. #49
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    The fact remains that the National Socialists were big-government authoritarians, with nothing in common with modern conservatives and libertarians.
    Modern "libertarians" are not considered especially right-wing when viewed across a full spectrum of issues, so no surprises there. And many modern "conservatives" are actually pro-big-government, except when it suits them not to be. The later Howard was a typical example of this. A small government position is a radical position and hence one conservatism is wary of.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    The undoubted Left in the West viewed the fascists as fellow travellers before their invasions, since they had many policies in common.
    How do you support this assertion?

    collectivism <> individualism
    guided economy <> economic liberalism
    internationalism <> nationalism
    athiestistic <> religious
    pro-union <> anti-union
    pro-sufferage <> anti-sufferage
    anti-colonial <> pro-colonial
    revolutionary <> reactionary
    social-progressive <> traditionalist

  6. #51
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    The fact remains that the National Socialists were big-government authoritarians, with nothing in common with modern conservatives and libertarians. The undoubted Left in the West viewed the fascists as fellow travellers before their invasions, since they had many policies in common. The National Socialists were not the "opposite" of the Communist Left, but fought over the same ideological territory.
    The fact remains that the the National Socialists where opposed to egalitarianism, a position they share with most conservatives today. Especially those of the religious right life Family First and the former darling of the right, the One Nation party.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #52
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    The fact remains that the the National Socialists where opposed to egalitarianism, a position they share with most conservatives today.
    Well, depends what you mean. Conservatives support equality of opportunity, while lefties support equality of outcome. Similarly, conservatives support equality under the law, while lefties make different laws for different groups to try to force an artificial equality of outcome. For example, they support "affirmative action" that rewards some people and punishes others according to sex or race, and "hate crimes" that make some class of victim more important than others. And what lefties usually don't let on, they support huge inequality of power for the Anointed, necessary to forcibly equalize wealth and impose quotas.

    Another problem is when conservatives oppose yet another expensive government program, leftards demagogue them as hating the people that the program is ostensibly meant to help. Rather, the conservatives point out that these programs are often counter-productive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Especially those of the religious right life Family First and the former darling of the right, the One Nation party.
    The ONP was quite leftist in its economics, e.g. its support for protectionism.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  8. #53
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manack
    How do you support this assertion?
    See post #2 above. Your other dichotomies are mostly imagined.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  9. #54
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    I notice that often Jono does not answer me coz he can't - that his how I read it anyway

  10. #55
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    The ONP was quite leftist in its economics, e.g. its support for protectionism.
    Jono, It is not a very interesting discussion if you are going to classify any economics you don't like as 'leftist' even if they are people and parties who have no political affinity with the left and are uncontroversially considered a right wing party.

    You're basically trotting out the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  11. #56
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Jono, It is not a very interesting discussion if you are going to classify any economics you don't like as 'leftist' even if they are people and parties who have no political affinity with the left and are uncontroversially considered a right wing party.
    Uncontroversially? No, it was a leftist propaganda ploy to call the statist National Socialist German Workers Party "right-wing", and the only "evidence" is that they opposed the Communists. As explained, this doesn't prove anything, or else Trotsky must have been right-wing because he opposed Stalin.

    Similarly, Hanson supported more government involvement in people's lives including trade barriers.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  12. #57
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Uncontroversially?

    .........Similarly, Hanson supported more government involvement in people's lives including trade barriers.

    Country Party are famous for that, agrarian socialists they are called. They in league with the Liberals want to privatise the profits and socialise the losses. Biggest hypocrites in other words.

  13. #58
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Uncontroversially? No, it was a leftist propaganda ploy to call the statist National Socialist German Workers Party "right-wing", and the only "evidence" is that they opposed the Communists. As explained, this doesn't prove anything, or else Trotsky must have been right-wing because he opposed Stalin.

    Similarly, Hanson supported more government involvement in people's lives including trade barriers.
    It seems you fall into the same trap that Sowell did in classifying party alignment by whether their economic policies and ignore what it actually means to be left- or right-wing.

    I realise this is tempting for you but unfortunately you can't undertake this level of revisionism and expect to get away with it. Any right-wing party you don't like you can just say "oh policy xyz" is leftist and therefore <insert party leaders name here> was a 'leftist'.

    That's just the woolly headed thinking you get when a Republican mouthpiece who specialises in economics starts to rewrite political definitions to suit their own agenda.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  14. #59
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    you could try barring Jono from quoting anyone else, make him contribute something original for a change, he would be speechless

  15. #60
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    Country Party are famous for that, agrarian socialists they are called.
    I know, and I have criticised them for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    They in league with the Liberals want to privatise the profits and socialise the losses. Biggest hypocrites in other words.
    Sounds like paranoid nonsense, but unfortunately it was true in the American Republicans who supported the bailout. But many conservative libertarians criticised such crony capitalism.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

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