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  1. #16
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    why is it that nazi germany are commonly referred to as fascists , and socialism is seen closer to lefty/communism , yet the nazi party was in fact called the national socialist party ?
    It intrigues me that this question is so often asked by those who would certainly not accept, for instance, that the Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea is especially democratic. Party names often exist more for propaganda reasons than because the party actually lives up to them.

    The Nazis wanted to encourage working-class Aryans to join their party rather than joining the Communists. They would hardly have pitched themselves effectively to the proles had they been more accurate and called their party the Nationalist Economically-Mishmashed Racist Militarist Party.

  2. #17
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    It intrigues me that this question is so often asked by those who would certainly not accept, for instance, that the Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea is especially democratic. Party names often exist more for propaganda reasons than because the party actually lives up to them.
    The Nazis wanted to encourage working-class Aryans to join their party rather than joining the Communists. They would hardly have pitched themselves effectively to the proles had they been more accurate and called their party the Nationalist Economically-Mishmashed Racist Militarist Party.
    What intrigues me even more is that people don't question the labels of the particular governments that govern them now ! (given, what you say)

  3. #18
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    What intrigues me even more is that people don't question the labels of the particular governments that govern them now !
    Don't they? Some do. I think in Australia there is a fair degree of cynicism about whether Labor is really the party of the workers, and also about whether the Liberals are actually liberal.

  4. #19
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Don't they? Some do. I think in Australia there is a fair degree of cynicism about whether Labor is really the party of the workers, and also about whether the Liberals are actually liberal.
    thats one level , but not at higher levels of comprehending the political system .
    General low level cynicism is one thing , but understanding that governments are puppets of big money corporate power is quite another .
    as is understanding the blurred beyond useful recognition - left/right paradigm .

  5. #20
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    It's also a one-shot argument as I've pointed out before. It's certainly true that fascism has more in common economically with socialism than capitalism or "conservatism" (to the limited extent that the latter has any kind of coherent and definable economic vision at all). It's also true that it has more in common with modern "liberalism" (ie the doctrine of the typical American Democrat) than with classical "liberalism" of the 19th century.
    That's Goldberg's main thesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    But economics is just one of the many defining characters of fascism. Fascism is also distinguished by:

    * populist anti-modernism
    * centralised authoritarianism
    * militarism
    * nationalism
    * state control of practically all areas of life
    Goldberg documents such fascistic elements of Democrat Woodrow Wilson's presidency. He was a white supremacist who introduced segregation into several federal departments and loved the KKK-glorifying film Birth of a Nation, had dissenters imprisoned, took over the railroads, Before his presidency, he was an academic political scientist who attacked the American Constitution because of its checks and balances. Wilson strongly pushed the Espionage Act of 1917 and the Sedition Act of 1918 that led to the imprisonment of 170,000 Americans and also the collapse of newspapers critical of him when the US Postal Service refused to carry them. And he set up a propaganda ministry, the United States Committee on Public Information.

    FDR's New Deal had fascistic elements. Both of these presidents used war imagery.

    Now war is not such a fashionable crisis used to justify increasing government control. But Czech president Václav Klaus thinks that global warm-mongering has been a convenient crisis for those who want to remove individual freedom:

    Klaus, an economist, said he opposed the "climate alarmism" perpetuated by environmentalism trying to impose their ideals, comparing it to the decades of communist rule he experienced growing up in Soviet-dominated Czechoslovakia.

    "Like their (communist) predecessors, they will be certain that they have the right to sacrifice man and his freedom to make their idea reality," he said.

    "In the past, it was in the name of the Marxists or of the proletariat — this time, in the name of the planet," he added.

    Klaus said a free market should be used to address environmental concerns and said he oppposed as unrealistic regulations or greenhouse gas capping systems designed to reduce the impact of climate change.

    "It could be even true that we are now at a stage where mere facts, reason and truths are powerless in the face of the global warming propaganda," he said.

    Klaus alleged that the global warming was being championed by scientists and other environmentalists whose careers and funding requires selling the public on global warming.

    "It is in the hands of climatologists and other related scientists who are highly motivated to look in one direction only," Klaus said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    * anti-communism
    fighting over the same territory. Compare Stalin and Trotsky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Right-wing reactionism, which often calls itself "conservatism" although it isn't, far more enthusiastically embraces these areas than US left-liberalism does. On this basis, the broad bracketing of fascism as part of the Old Right is absolutely correct.
    Yet they tend not to support increased government controls on everything from production to education.

    Yet fascism was not inherently antisemitic. There were Jews in Mussolini's fascist party right up to the time he allied with Hitler. And Franco repealed the edict of expulsion of Jews from Spain, and refused to hand any Jews over to Hitler.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidflude
    The Oxford dictionary defines fascism as an extreme right wing political system.
    That's an example of the revisionism. Yet there is nothing right about Fascism. The right wants small government, not large government control as fascists advocated. It's a historical fact that Mussolini made his name as a leading socialist, and never abandoned this philosophy. But while Lenin wanted international socialism, Mussolini supported national socialism. Goldberg documents that during most of his reign, no one doubted that he was a man of the Left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidflude
    Franco fought against the extreme left.
    Over the same territory. On a related matter, Churchill noted that communists despised politicians of the Left who were not quite communist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidflude
    Anyone who thinks that he was left wing has lost his marbles. (He may well have been right as the communists were close to siezing power.) The USA supported him after the Second world war because he was strongly anti-communist. (Also he knocked back Hitler's request that he enter the Second World War on the side of the Germans and insisted that Jews with Spanish passports should not be harmed.)
    Yes, as I said, fascism was not inherently antisemitic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidflude
    Mussolini was very anti Hitler until the British and French pushed him over Abysinia.
    Correct.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  7. #22
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Goldberg documents such fascistic elements of Democrat Woodrow Wilson's presidency.
    And what did you make of the link posted by Axiom (yes, I'm aware that's hardly a ringing endorsement but it was well above his usual standard!) casting Churchill in a similar light?

    It's not that hard to find "fascistic" elements in a wide range of political movements if you go back that far to look for them. Doesn't mean Wilson represents leftism as it exists today.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    And what did you make of the link posted by Axiom (yes, I'm aware that's hardly a ringing endorsement but it was well above his usual standard!) casting Churchill in a similar light?
    Hard to believe. But Wilson's political writings against checks and balances, and his imprisonment of any critics of his war policy, was what Goldberg thought was the closest that America has come to fascism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    It's not that hard to find "fascistic" elements in a wide range of political movements if you go back that far to look for them.
    But the similarities of American Progressives, the ancestors of today's liberals, were marked, and also explicitly stated at the time before WW2 made "fascist" a swear word.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  9. #24
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Hard to believe.
    For what reason?

    But Wilson's political writings against checks and balances, and his imprisonment of any critics of his war policy, was what Goldberg thought was the closest that America has come to fascism.
    Lucky for it if that is the case. After all, illiberal crackdowns on dissent during wartime are not uncommon even in the least worst of democracies (alas), and trying to judge Wilson's rule by what he said before he was elected is a bit like trying to understand Australia's current environment policies by analysing the few Midnight Oil lyrics that were actually written by Peter Garrett.

    But the similarities of American Progressives, the ancestors of today's liberals, were marked, and also explicitly stated at the time before WW2 made "fascist" a swear word.
    Well, one of the similarities you refer to is racism, which has since receded greatly. Not that racism is quintessentially "fascist" anyway; movements can be racist without being fascist or fascist without being racist, easily.

  10. #25
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Pain and Conscience

    It is evident that a substantial majority of U.S. citizens are, in principle, opposed to the most destructive governmental policies stemming from the nation’s capital. These include, but are not limited to—the continuing war and occupation of Iraq, as well as the pervasive consumer fraud that preys upon the innocent and the unwary and causes them undue hardship. These charges are born out by the abysmal approval rating of Congress and the president. It is equally evident that the government, while pretending to be sympathetic to these views, continues to carry forth those same policies both at home and abroad. It does so without the consent of the people and, therefore, it has abrogated its responsibility to them.

    These destructive policies are formulated in the various branches of government and in the corporate board rooms of America. They are a prominent feature of the run amok presidency of George W. Bush, where they manifest themselves to the world. However, their history precedes Bush and his corporate gangsters by generations, and they are an outgrowth of the exploitive capital system.

    In some respects the presidency serves as a distraction from the machinations that are operating behind the scenes to spew forth one disastrous policy after another. With so much attention given to Bush, the people are failing to confront the root cause of which George W. Bush is but a single manifestation: the sociopolitical system that put the present criminal regime in power.



    What is so exasperating to many of us is that the corruption of the political system is widely understood and yet so little is done about it. The people continue to participate in it; they continue to vote in the absence of meaningful choice and they continue to support it with their taxes. There have been peace marches and other forms of token protest, but they have had little bearing on the continuing policies of economic disparity, environmental destruction, and imperial war that are prominent features of American capitalism.

    Because protest in America has become more symbolic than effective, those in power can afford to ignore it. Even when participation in protest is great, it is of short duration; it does not cause serious economic or political disruption, and it does not pose a real threat to the established orthodoxy. After a few hours of peaceful marching, the people pack up and go back to their lives and everything remains as it was before they came.

    Effective protest causes economic and political disruption. It persists until the just demands of the people are met. The established orthodoxy feels pain and discomfort from it; it feels a palpable threat and understands that the injustice cannot continue. Either it addresses the demands of the people, or it perishes. This is a manifestation of democracy. It is serious stuff that requires enormous sacrifice from those who protest in this way. The Montgomery bus boycott of the 60s was that kind of protest; and it was a protest that was won by the people, despite a constant threat of violence and death.

    These days few people are willing to put anything tangible on the line. One wonders: Is there anything that the American people are willing to fight and die for? Is there anything real that we really believe in? Or do we relish the symbols of freedom more than we love freedom itself?


    American exceptionalism is fostered in all of our social and political institutions. This includes the educational system and religious institutions. Thus, these beliefs are continually reinforced from cradle to grave, and never more so than in the corporate media. So it is not surprising that our political leaders behave as if they were endowed with the powers of deities, even though they are nothing more than fallible human beings like everyone else. It requires enormous hubris for anyone to adopt such doctrines, but there appears to be an inexhaustible supply of hubris in this country and a paucity of humility and compassion. Those who think in this way are prone to behaving toward the world with vitriol, as we witness daily.

    The collective result of so many individually destructive paradigms is dehumanization. When we allow people to be dehumanized it is easy to hate them and to exploit them; to see them as entities endowed with less inherent value than ourselves or our chosen kind. It is easy to kill or subjugate inferior people and inferior beings. That is also how the government (the economic elite) perceives the working class and in their eyes that perception makes working people exploitable and expendable. Giving our continued allegiance to such government is irrational and immoral; it is also cowardly and self-destructive.

    We are faced with a situation in which the body politic not only does not care what the American people think; it disdains populism as much here as it does in Latin America and elsewhere in the world. Populism and its close cousin—democracy—pose an enormous threat to the established order; and that order provides wealth and privilege to a select few, while denying it to everyone else. This is why corrupt politicians and so many academicians spare no effort to suppress and crush democratic movements, and cover up their crimes through a disingenuous rendering of history.

    Yet with so much of the population aware of the government’s disdain of the people’s needs, why isn’t there effective organized resistance to it? Why isn’t there widespread social and economic disruption? Why do the people not revoke their consent to be governed and refuse their allegiance to a government that is not only corrupt and devoid of moral capital but is also clearly predatory or even cannibalistic? Why do we continue to fund criminal governments, including our own, with our taxes? Why isn’t there social unrest and civil disobedience in the streets? Why are those who expose these crimes punished and the criminals go free and reap financial reward for their malfeasance?

    One explanation for the widespread social malaise in this country is that people are overwhelmed by it; shocked and awed by it; disorientated by it. They cannot believe the audacity of the Bush regime. Disorientation makes the plunder of the commonwealth easy to carry out. Even while dazed and confused, so many people remain wed to the idea of America’s inherent goodness and moral superiority to the rest of the world, despite mountains of evidence against such views. Thus, they view the criminal Bush regime as an aberration rather than a continuation of an historical pattern.

    Social justice advocates are rightly infuriated to know that amidst this worsening climate a solid majority of the people can remain indifferent and willfully ignorant of what is being done in their names. There is a reason for this. The American people do not want to acknowledge any wrong doing on the part of their government, which is, in theory, an extension of the people. Of course, that is not the actual practice. This refusal psychologically absolves them from guilt or complicity and it permits them the luxury of apathy. By refusing to acknowledge wrong doing, no further action is required of them. They can go on consuming, falling asleep in front of the television and sending their offspring to die in unnecessary wars, while sinking ever deeper into debt and economic servitude.

    Furthermore, the inert masses are mentally and spiritually ill equipped to deal with reality; so they block it out of their minds—aided, of course, by the corporate media and the propaganda apparatus of the government, itself. This is why fantasy is freely substituted for reality; plutocracy is mistaken for democracy, and the majority of the people do not know the difference. Millions of good people thus refuse to allow into their psyche the suffering and misery that U.S. policy has produced and exported to the world, even as that reality is closing in upon them. Unfortunately, I can point to my own family as an example of such delusional thinking, as no doubt can many of my readers.

    Understanding this, the greatest obstacle to creating a vibrant and effective social justice movement is convincing the inert masses that they must acknowledge the suffering we have caused and are continuing to inflict upon the world. The multitudes must see the wisdom of looking behind the veneer of propaganda and confronting an ugly and often painful truth: the brutal and violent history of our nation, including the suppression of democracy wherever it is encountered.

    We the people must find the courage to confront reality, and that means that we must be willing to feel the pain and suffering we have inflicted on others. We must admit that we are not exceptional or superior, and that we are not more entitled to our share of the world’s bounty than any other people. But we must go even deeper than that: we must bring about restitution for our past wrong-doing.

    The citizens of the United States must become one with the world and look beyond nationality; beyond race, sex, and religious creed. Suffering and joy are conditions of life and they should be kept in balance as much as possible. Because suffering causes discomfort that few people want to experience, the alleviation of suffering is powerful motivation to demand justice; and that is the force that motivates most good people to do what they do, which is resist the tyranny of evil government. Once our indiscretions have been acknowledged and acted upon, we will find that the world is more than willing to forgive our past transgressions. This act alone will allow us to rejoin the world, so to speak.

    Many years ago I questioned my mother about eating meat and the suffering it caused so many innocent animals. Her response revealed much about the American consciousness. She did not witness the suffering of those animals. She did not hear their cries of pain. She saw no blood in the sanitized product that was sold in the grocery store, wrapped in clear plastic and served up on pristine styrofoam. So their suffering was not real to her; it was too far removed from her experience. But the suffering of those animals and their cries of pain are very real indeed; and so is the suffering the United States government is inflicting upon the world.

    Were we on the receiving end of our government’s foreign policies, we would have a very different perception of them. But like wrapped meat in the grocery store, we do not see the pain and the blood—or the suffering. So for many people it is not real; it is not happening…but it is.

    By admitting some of this pain into our lives we are simultaneously admitting all of the other things into our lives that define our collective humanity; among them hope and joy. Then, and only then, can we take a principled stand for social and environmental justice and build an effective movement toward these ends. We must pry open closed minds and allow reality to penetrate delusion, as witnessing cause and effect often does. By this process sheeple are transformed once again into people, each of them endowed with a conscience capable of distinguishing right and wrong. This moral evolution is itself a revolutionary act of monumental import to any justice movement. It provides the means for people to act according to the dictates of conscience, and that is an act of liberation from dogma.

    Revolution begins by altering consciousness. We stand at the brink of a multitude of possible futures, many of them tragic. The failure to act and rebel when the conditions demand it is a betrayal not only of our own humanity; it is a crime of great magnitude. The world’s foremost thinkers and visionaries have always understood this. Can we?

    http://www.bestcyrano.org/THOMASPAINE/?p=733#more-733
    Last edited by Axiom; 01-06-2008 at 03:11 AM.

  11. #26
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    names

    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    why is it that nazi germany are commonly referred to as fascists , and socialism is seen closer to lefty/communism , yet the nazi party was in fact called the national socialist party ?
    Political parties like to give themselves names that may or may not reflect their beliefs.

  12. #27
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidflude
    Political parties like to give themselves names that may or may not reflect their beliefs.
    like "labour" ,"liberal", "democratic party" , "conservative" and "republican" ?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Not that racism is quintessentially "fascist" anyway; movements can be racist without being fascist or fascist without being racist, easily.
    Correct. That erases the large significant difference between communism and fascism (as ideology).
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidflude
    Political parties like to give themselves names that may or may not reflect their beliefs.
    Fascist parties of early twenties in both Germany and Italy considered themselves socialist. And they were.
    For private coaching (IM, four times VIC champion) call or SMS 0417519733
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  15. #30
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    Angry Sicko fascist parents name their kid "Adolph Hitler" and want swastika on cake

    Speaking of fascists, a Holocaust-denying couple, Heath and Deborah Campbell, named two of their kids:

    1. Adolph Hitler Campbell
    2. JoyceLynn Aryan Nation Campbell


    This is far sicker even than other celebrity parent giving their kids stupid names or weird spellings of normal names, since the latter is just making a sick joke or showing off at the child's expense. But honouring mass murders and celebrating racist groups goes well beyond that.

    Supermarket defends itself over Adolf Hitler cake

    A supermarket is defending itself for refusing to a write out 3-year-old Adolf Hitler Campbell's name on his birthday cake. Deborah Campbell, 25, of nearby Hunterdon County, N.J., said she phoned in her order last week to the Greenwich ShopRite. When she told the bakery department she wanted her son's name spelled out, she was told to talk to a supervisor, who denied the request.

    Karen Meleta, a ShopRite spokeswoman, said the store denied similar requests from the Campbells the last two years, including a request for a swastika.

    "We reserve the right not to print anything on the cake that we deem to be inappropriate," Meleta said. "We considered this inappropriate."

    ....
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

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