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  1. #1
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Nazis - right wing, left wing? [sf various threads]

    A lefty, yet, corporate media ?????



    Contemplate for a moment , the dove-tailing of, or synergy between, socialism and fascism .

    Reflect on the accuracy of definition of the terms , "left" and "right".
    Last edited by Axiom; 30-05-2008 at 08:59 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    A lefty, yet, corporate media ?????
    Are you surprised? Large corporations are often biggest beneficiaries of a large leftist government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Are you surprised? Large corporations are often biggest beneficiaries of a large leftist government.
    precisely igor.
    i was trying to confront others to examine their understanding of their definitions of these concepts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    A lefty, yet, corporate media ?????
    Yes, as long as lefty governments insist on interfering with the economy, opportunistic corporations will use this to their advantage. After all, if a corporation mugged customers of a rival for a cut, it would be reegarded as criminal. But if they can persuade the government to apply tariffs, practically the same result will occur, without penalties, even though the acts are morally equivalent. Or else the corporations capture "licensing boards" and use them to restrict new entrants that might compete with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    Contemplate for a moment , the dove-tailing of, or synergy between, socialism and fascism.
    Of course. Fascism was historically a movement of the Left (e.g. national socialism), as documented by Jonah Goldberg in Liberal Fascism.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Yes, as long as lefty governments insist on interfering with the economy, opportunistic corporations will use this to their advantage. After all, if a corporation mugged customers of a rival for a cut, it would be reegarded as criminal. But if they can persuade the government to apply tariffs, practically the same result will occur, without penalties, even though the acts are morally equivalent. Or else the corporations capture "licensing boards" and use them to restrict new entrants that might compete with them.
    yes, so again we have failure of government , be they from the so called left or right. Both controlled by big money or corporations. Hence why i implore political analysts to see the real power dynamic at work, rather than this misleading illusory 'left-right' paradigm.
    Note too that major media is corporate media , and that major multi national corporations be they , millitary, agri , pharma or media cooperate for their mutual benefit , often at the cost of the uninformed masses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Of course. Fascism was historically a movement of the Left (e.g. national socialism), as documented by Jonah Goldberg in Liberal Fascism.
    You certainly seem closer than most in understanding the overlap and intertwining of these concepts rather than as many see them , as largely distinct opposites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Of course. Fascism was historically a movement of the Left (e.g. national socialism), as documented by Jonah Goldberg in Liberal Fascism.
    Just because some right-wing hackjob (ass opposed to you know - a proper historian) writes a book about it doesn't make it true.
    Last edited by pax; 31-05-2008 at 10:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Just because some right-wing hackjob (ass opposed to you know - a proper historian) writes a book about it doesn't make it true.
    "Right-wing hackjob" is Paxspeak for anyon not as loony left as More-On.

    It's easy to check the ardent socialism of Mussolini, how Westerners all regarded him as a man of the left, and see how American progressives admired him at the time. It's also easy to contrast the economic policies of Mussolini and Hitler with the small-government policies of right-wing conservatives, as well as the fascist slogans of unifying their people while conservatives recognize that people are always going to disagree.

    The Fascists and Communists fought over the same Leftistterritory. But their internecine struggles have allowed intellectually dishonest lefties to class fascism as a movement of the Right.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    "Right-wing hackjob" is Paxspeak for anyon not as loony left as More-On.
    No, it's a label reserved for a very special few. Count yourself privileged

    A more generous label would be "conservative commentator". The guy is paid to be opinionated, and has no history qualifications. He has zero credibility in mounting a historical argument aligning liberalism with fascism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    A more generous label would be "conservative commentator". The guy is paid to be opinionated, and has no history qualifications. He has zero credibility in mounting a historical argument aligning liberalism with fascism.
    Translation: I can't and won't deal with Goldberg's historical documentation, because it suits me to paint Fascism as a movement of the Right.

    Another problem is that modern liberalism is basically the same as what was called Progressivism in those days, which really did talk about "third way" rubbish and increased government controls. Liberalism, as it's known in America, is actually very illiberal.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  10. #10
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    He has zero credibility in mounting a historical argument aligning liberalism with fascism.
    It's also a one-shot argument as I've pointed out before. It's certainly true that fascism has more in common economically with socialism than capitalism or "conservatism" (to the limited extent that the latter has any kind of coherent and definable economic vision at all). It's also true that it has more in common with modern "liberalism" (ie the doctrine of the typical American Democrat) than with classical "liberalism" of the 19th century.

    But economics is just one of the many defining characters of fascism. Fascism is also distinguished by:

    * populist anti-modernism
    * centralised authoritarianism
    * militarism
    * nationalism
    * state control of practically all areas of life
    * anti-communism

    Right-wing reactionism, which often calls itself "conservatism" although it isn't, far more enthusiastically embraces these areas than US left-liberalism does. On this basis, the broad bracketing of fascism as part of the Old Right is absolutely correct.

    Instead of trying to use the limited similarities between fascism and left-liberalism (and the differences between both and capitalism) to argue that fascism is a movement of the "left", it makes more sense to point out the extent to which a genuine laissez-faire capitalism would fail to fit the right-wing mould. (That is, to the extent that the terms "left" and "right" have any use at all.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham

    But economics is just one of the many defining characters of fascism. Fascism is also distinguished by:
    * populist anti-modernism
    Any specific examples?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    * centralised authoritarianism
    Like communism
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    * militarism
    Like communism
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    * nationalism
    That's the biggest different between fascism and communism, nationalism versus internationalism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    * state control of practically all areas of life
    Like communism
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    * anti-communism
    Chinese and Soviet communist parties viewed each other as almost bigger enemies then capitalism. It is quite natural for two similar branches of the same ideological movement to treat each other with hostility. After all, the gang can have only one leader.

    We can see one major difference (nationalism versus internationalism), hate for each other and similarity in almost everything else.
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    Bullseye Igor - Blinding Truth !

    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Any specific examples?

    Like communism

    Like communism

    That's the biggest different between fascism and communism, nationalism versus internationalism.

    Like communism

    Chinese and Soviet communist parties viewed each other as almost bigger enemies then capitalism. It is quite natural for two similar branches of the same ideological movement to treat each other with hostility. After all, the gang can have only one leader.

    We can see one major difference (nationalism versus internationalism), hate for each other and similarity in almost everything else.
    Brilliant Igor !
    Beautiful, i couldn't agree more with that response.
    Spot on .


  13. #13
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Any specific examples?
    Both German and Italian pre-WWII fascism had a strong emphasis on throwing out the supposed modern rationalist curses of liberty and democracy and getting back to a nostalgic concept of better days in the past. The main difference between them was that in the German case that concept was racially loaded. This nostalgic aspect is an important difference between fascism and communism because communism considers itself to be the ultimate development of rational intellect rather than a reaction against it.

    As for "like communism", communism as a statism has indeed generally been authoritarian and militaristic. Communism as an ideology is not necessarily so.

    I agree that statist versions of "communism" that have been put in place have closely resembled fascism in many ways, but again, this highlights the extent to which statist communism is leftism carried to an incoherent aberrant extreme , rather than making "fascism" a leftist movement.

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    fascism - not left wing

    The Oxford dictionary defines fascism as an extreme right wing political system.

    Franco fought against the extreme left. Anyone who thinks that he was left wing has lost his marbles. (He may well have been right as the communists were close to siezing power.) The USA supported him after the Second world war because he was strongly anti-communist. (Also he knocked back Hitler's request that he enter the Second World War on the side of the Germans and insisted that Jews with Spanish passports should not be harmed.) The Germans desperately needed Spanish minerals especially Tungsten.

    Germany was not a fascist state like Mussolini or Franco. It had a mixture of left wing and right wing ideas plus some horrible ideas of their own. Mussolini was very anti Hitler until the British and French pushed him over Abysinia. Incidentally
    I have read Count Ciano's Diary. (He married Mussolinis daughter and kept a diary). Hitler plus all of the Italian administration wanted Italy to stay neutral) but the great leader wanted to join the war.

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    please explain David

    why is it that nazi germany are commonly referred to as fascists , and socialism is seen closer to lefty/communism , yet the nazi party was in fact called the national socialist party ?

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