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  1. #31
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Fuelwatch won't make a blind bit of difference either way. I live in Perth, and I don't know anyone who consults Fuelwatch before buying petrol.
    If it makes no difference, then it's a stupid thing to introduce and waste taxpayas' money on, and especially to bully public servants to draft the legislation in a rush. It's more likely to smooth out the weekly crests and troughs, which will mean more expensive petrol for those who normally buy on the troughs.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    If it makes no difference, then it's a stupid thing to introduce and waste taxpayas' money on, and especially to bully public servants to draft the legislation in a rush. It's more likely to smooth out the weekly crests and troughs, which will mean more expensive petrol for those who normally buy on the troughs.
    Also, in what does seem a logical conclusion, The independants will be the one hit the hardest with the increased compliance costs and also with having to maintain the same price for 24 hours.

    This will force out more independants, leading to reduced competition. At the same time, Labor is saying that the main way to keep prices low is to have more competition.

    Seems like rank hypocrisy to me.

  3. #33
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Regarding people looking on the internet for cheap fuel, there is already www.motormouth.com.au.

    So motorists can already research for fuel prices.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    Also, in what does seem a logical conclusion, The independants will be the one hit the hardest with the increased compliance costs and also with having to maintain the same price for 24 hours.

    This will force out more independants, leading to reduced competition.
    I think this is also grossly overstating the consequences. It would have to be an extraordinarily weak business for Fuelwatch to push it over the edge.

  5. #35
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    I think this is also grossly overstating the consequences. It would have to be an extraordinarily weak business for Fuelwatch to push it over the edge.
    But they are. Petrol is very high volume, low margin. Independents need an edge to cope with the big guys, but FoolWatch stops them adjusting their price for 24 hrs. Such anti-competitive legislation often favours the established companies. It's no accident that big business and big government have often been allies.

    Edit: FoolWatch may not have the legal right to regulate inincorporated independent stations.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 09-06-2008 at 11:50 AM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    But they are. Petrol is very high volume, low margin. Independents need an edge to cope with the big guys, but FoolWatch stops them adjusting their price for 24 hrs. Such anti-competitive legislation often favours the established companies. It's no accident that big business and big government have often been allies.
    I haven't seen any evidence of station closures brought on by Fuelwatch in WA. Have you?

  7. #37
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    I haven't seen any evidence of station closures brought on by Fuelwatch in WA. Have you?
    Foolwatch increases the barrier to entry. And you say yourself it won't make any difference, so why introduce it?
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Foolwatch increases the barrier to entry.
    Barely.
    And you say yourself it won't make any difference, so why introduce it?
    Good question. I am no advocate of fuelwatch, but I think the merits and flaws of fuelwatch are grossly overstated on both sides of the debate. In my view it will make very little difference one way or another.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    Regarding people looking on the internet for cheap fuel, there is already www.motormouth.com.au.

    So motorists can already research for fuel prices.
    I used it few times, it works indeed.
    And no need for Big Brother to participate.
    For private coaching (IM, four times VIC champion) call or SMS 0417519733
    Computer tells you what to play. Good coach explains why.

  10. #40
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    I used it few times, it works indeed.
    And no need for Big Brother to participate.
    Speaking of which, the Government of Chairmain KRudd is now trying to do what no government can do: pick winners:

    How did we just buy a $70 million car?
    Andrew Bolt
    11 June 2008

    How did we end up handing Toyota $70 million to do what it was going to do anyway?

    Toyota was given $35 million from the Federal Government’s $500 million green car innovation fund plus $20 million in perks from the Victorian Government to build 10,000 hybrid Camrys each year at its plant in Altona, Victoria, starting in 2010 …

    The Government is prepared to use its fleet-buying power as a lure. Labor’s policy is to have 4000 Australian-made, fuel-efficient cars in the Commonwealth fleet by 2020 …

    The Herald understands that Toyota demanded it supply all 4000 hybrid cars as well as the Victorian Government’s fleet. This was rejected on the grounds that such deals must go through a tender process. However, Victoria did promise to buy 2000 of the cars for its fleet…

    The new hybrids will be for domestic sales and the regional export market and will cost about $4000 more than a regular model.
    Actually, The Australian figures that the Victorian Government actually put in $35 million, too. And suspicion grows that taxpayers have been clobbered — as they usually are when governments start picking “winners”:

    CAR giant Toyota had already decided to make a hybrid version of its Camry sedan in Australia and did not need the $70 million of taxpayer-funded subsidies promised by the federal and Victorian governments yesterday …

    Toyota Australia spokesman Mike Breen said the subsidies meant the announcement was brought forward.

    It would have gone ahead without the $70million cash injection, which was not critical to the proposal, he said.

    EDIT: And why not the Honda Civic Hybrid, that is much cheaper than the Prius, and also feels like a normal car? Chairman KRudd’s winner picking is even distorting the hybrid market, to say nothing of the overall market.

    One comparison concludes:

    But, at the end of the day you are buying a Hybrid because you want to help the environment by using less fuel. On an ironic (yet totally off-topic) side-note, I wonder how helpful it is to the environment when the time comes to discard of the vehicles batteries? Anyway, if you are buying either the Civic Hybrid or Prius because you want to help the environment with a better fuel economy figure, you would obviously buy the Prius. It was proven on test (and by other motoring journalists) that the Civic Hybrid doesn’t return the claimed fuel efficiency figure stated by Honda. But, if you look at the ‘big’ picture, you are saving money by purchasing the Honda Civic Hybrid, along with further helping the environment with the planting of trees by Honda.

    ...

    But, when the Civic Hybrid and base model Prius are thrown into the ring, it’s a much fairer battle. With a price difference of $6,000, you have to ask yourself if you are willing to spend the extra $6,000 to obtain the better fuel efficiency featured in the Prius. At the end of the day though, if it were me, and I had to choose between the Prius and the Civic Hybrid, I’d go for the Civic. The value for money is brilliant and I’m sure I could find environmentally friendly ways of spending the $6,000 price difference between the Civic Hybrid and the Prius.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 11-06-2008 at 02:59 PM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Barely.
    That might make all the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Good question. I am no advocate of fuelwatch, but I think the merits and flaws of fuelwatch are grossly overstated on both sides of the debate. In my view it will make very little difference one way or another.
    FoolWatch is just another example of KRudd's penchant for spin and busyness over substance and results.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  12. #42
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    dinosaurs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Music to my ears. Interesting article.

    (By the way I am biased against SUVs in suburbia mainly because they are a serious hazard to pedestrians; I care about that much more than about gas-guzzling.)
    They are not just a hazard to pedestrians. They are a hazard to normal cars. I drove past an expensive primary school a few days ago and it was worse than a Ford Territory advertisement. There were dinosaurs lined up dropping off children
    in all directions.

  13. #43
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    my prediction

    Quote Originally Posted by pax


    Note that this graph is translated into 2007 dollars, accounting for inflation. It also does not include the last several months of price increases - the world price is now in excess of $130 a barrel.

    So will we see a repeat of the '70s shock, with prices coming back down to the long term average? That seems pretty unlikely, but some are at least predicting prices to drop back to around the $100 level by the end of 2008. Others, however are predicting prices to move through $200 and keep going. Who is right?
    There is speculative money invested in tankers full of oil going nowhere. Eventually this will end and the price will drop probably to about $100 a barrel. However the long term picture is of falling supply and rising demand. In the long term the price of oil will rise.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    (By the way I am biased against SUVs in suburbia mainly because they are a serious hazard to pedestrians; I care about that much more than about gas-guzzling.)
    How so?

    Ironically, hybrid cars can be a hazard precisely because of the times the petrol engine stops, and the electric motor is almost silent, so pedestrians don't hear them. This is an especially serious problem for blind pedestrians.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Ironically, hybrid cars can be a hazard ...
    Need a dictionary?

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