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  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    sports funding in general, VSU sf. chess as a sport

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Blake
    The reason why our Governments should fund chess (and it is overdue) is not on the basis of it being a "sport", but on the basis that it is a competitive activity of great significance, in terms of the high application of human intellect required to carry it out, and the greatness of the number of people, in Australia and in other countries, who play it and/or are otherwise involved in it.
    Why should the government fund chess at all, or any other sport? The government has no money apart from what it confiscates from taxpayers by force. And this is a zero-sum game: given that there is only so much that the government is willing to confiscate, anything given to one sport is automatically money that another sport doesn't have. But naturally, since chessplayers' dollars are being confiscated, it's only natural that they will want some of them back in their own sport.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  2. #2
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Why should the government fund chess at all, or any other sport? The government has no money apart from what it confiscates from taxpayers by force. And this is a zero-sum game: given that there is only so much that the government is willing to confiscate, anything given to one sport is automatically money that another sport doesn't have. But naturally, since chessplayers' dollars are being confiscated, it's only natural that they will want some of them back in their own sport.
    I think you are just being silly and unhelpful.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I think you are just being silly and unhelpful.
    I just think you're being being more unhelpful, as an advocate for forcibly confiscating money from some Australians to give to other Australians who happen to have lobby groups with the ear of politicians or bureaucrats.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  4. #4
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    In my view, in the hypothetical ideal system governments would not fund sport to any degree beyond school level; it would be left entirely to private enterprise. It is quite lucrative enough without our help and if taxpayers interested in it had more money to spend on it rather than it being taxed from them, it would only be more so.

    However we don't live in that society; we live in one in which our tax $$$ are taken from us to fund sport, and that is extremely unlikely to change. So while we might express half-hearted disagreement with the practice, should we refuse to accept that funding for ourselves, we only end up subsidising the sports liked by others while not receiving any funding for ourselves. (Of course we may like some of these sports as well).

    Therefore, while sport continues to be government-funded, I believe that chess should actively attempt to gain a piece of that pie. If sports funding was abolished, chess would probably benefit from chessplayers no longer having to spend a portion of their tax bill funding more popular sports. (The same applies for a follower of any other sport that is a realtively little-played sport at formal competitive level.)

    [Note: see parent thread for why I have put this in non-chess; it may be moved to a chess section depending on the direction of the discussion.]
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  5. #5
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    As it should. Thanks, Kevin.

    Jono can blather in here as much as he likes.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  6. #6
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Jono can blather in here as much as he likes.
    I'll probably join him. It will turn into yet another conversation about the fundamental subject of the internet, Libertarianism.
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  7. #7
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    the fundamental subject of the internet, Libertarianism.
    Interesting that , that should be so.

  8. #8
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Libertarianism.
    I thought the Libertines were pretty good. I hear Pete Doherty is out of jail so there is hope for a reformation I guess.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  9. #9
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    In my view, in the hypothetical ideal system governments would not fund sport to any degree beyond school level; it would be left entirely to private enterprise. It is quite lucrative enough without our help and if taxpayers interested in it had more money to spend on it rather than it being taxed from them, it would only be more so.

    However we don't live in that society; we live in one in which our tax $$$ are taken from us to fund sport, and that is extremely unlikely to change. So while we might express half-hearted disagreement with the practice, should we refuse to accept that funding for ourselves, we only end up subsidising the sports liked by others while not receiving any funding for ourselves. (Of course we may like some of these sports as well).

    Therefore, while sport continues to be government-funded, I believe that chess should actively attempt to gain a piece of that pie. If sports funding was abolished, chess would probably benefit from chessplayers no longer having to spend a portion of their tax bill funding more popular sports. (The same applies for a follower of any other sport that is a realtively little-played sport at formal competitive level.)
    I agree with all the above.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  10. #10
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    Considering all the problems within society and now the government wanting to raise taxes for maternity leave.

    How about decreasing sports/arts from funding. The government would save millions and fix things that really matter plus maternity instead of slogging taxes by another 0.5%.

    By the 2007 budget, the federal government spent 2,979 Million dollare on sport and recreation. Which is 1.26% of national expenses and an expected surplus of 10.6 Billion dollars.

  11. #11
    . eclectic's Avatar
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    why not reduce defence spending by getting our noses out of matters which are none of our business?
    .

  12. #12
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    Going through the Queensland budget now...

    - 41 million for tributes for Qld 150th separation from NSW
    - 13.5 million for tennis centre at Tennyson
    - Total sporting infrastructure of 40 million this year.

    Recreation and culture was 4% of budget.

    The Queensland government in 2001 spent 280 Million to redevelop Lang park
    Last edited by CameronD; 07-05-2008 at 12:18 AM.

  13. #13
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    I'm not saying all these expenses shouldn't happen, but the amounts spent on sport/recreation is to much when compared to primary problems that dont get the funding required.

  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronD
    Going through the Queensland budget now...

    - 41 million for tributes for Qld 150th separation from NSW
    - 13.5 million for tennis centre at Tennyson
    - Total sporting infrastructure of 40 million this year.

    Recreation and culture was 4% of budget.

    The Queensland government in 2001 spent 280 Million to redevelop Lang park
    In the figures above and other such figures, I do not think that the 'government' is just blindly giving taxpayers money away for nothing. My opinion is that they are doing it because they are 'certain' that the government will get more money back than they invested in the first place.

  15. #15
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    The difficulty with selling the argument that governments should not fund sport is that Australians are sooooo addicted to national sporting success (esp cricket and Olympics) on the grounds that it is one of remarkably few things that distinguishes us as a nation. So it's a very difficult argument to make here.

    I had a lot of experience with making it in the Voluntary Student Unionism debates, when I argued that to require university students to fund university sports clubs was unnecessary; after all, you don't need to play sport to get a degree so why should those who want a uni degree without sport pay to indulge those who want to be in uni sports clubs? (A part of my annoyance was that at our uni you needed 15 members to get funding and chess was rarely able to get near that number.)

    Now there is a lot of discussion from the student unions (what is left of them) about uni sports clubs being pushed to the wall by VSU. This would suggest to me that those sports-loving students who have saved some money through the abolition of compulsory student union fees are choosing to spend the saved money mainly on things other than uni sports clubs.
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