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  • I'm sorry...

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Thread: Are you sorry?

  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
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    Are you sorry?

    On this important and momentous day, we might as well have a thread to it.

  2. #2
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    Sorry for what?
    Some aboriginal children were dumped by their parents. Some were abused and/or assaulted by their parents and/or relatives and placed in a foster care.
    Should I feel sorry that my predecessors weren't among people that provided shelters and/or foster families for the children? Maybe, but I don't think it was possible for then anyway.

    What else should I feel sorry for?
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  3. #3
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    I am terribly sorry for all the Aboriginal children who suffered the injustice (even though as Igor pointed out -some of them were not adopted against parents' will). Furthermore, I am sorry about all the misfortunes that happened to the Aboriginal communities. I am sorry to see extremely high levels of drug and alcohol abuse in the Aboriginal communities and i am am sorry and disappointed to see all the massive funds allocated towards dealing with Aboriginal welfare issues to go down the drain.

    However....

    1) I do not feel personally responsible for the plight of Aboriginal people
    2) I do not want my tax money to fund alchohol and drug abuse in the aboriginal communities (and once the Goverment says sorry - payouts will be inevitable to follow)
    3) I am sorry that I have to say sorry for something that I have not done!
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  4. #4
    CC Candidate Master Sunshine's Avatar
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    I am definitely sorry about the plight of the aboriginal community.

    I believe the attitudes and policies of previous Australian Governments have greatly contributed to the current situation.

    The government of the day must accept responsibility for this and do what it can to rectify the damage.

    It is a bit like the James Hardie issue - the current management is responsible for the damage previous management inflicted on its employees and customers.

    The Government saying sorry obviously cannot be a personal thing - but it is the first step in the process.

    So yes, I am sorry even if I was not personally responsible.

  5. #5
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine
    It is a bit like the James Hardie issue - the current management is responsible for the damage previous management inflicted on its employees and customers.
    James Hardie and asbestos was very different. James Hardie at the time made business decisions which placed the health of the workers in danger, all for the sake of profits.

    The company then traded on these profits to make more profits, which is where they stand today.

    The 'stolen' generations is a very different story. A Government believed that removing aboriginal children from 'harmful' situations was in the best interests of the child and so placed them with white foster carers.

    Yes, some were wrongfully removed, but I do not see how this demands a national apology to a whole generation.

    Also, since the policy of removal was removed, self determination has worked real well. How is Aurukun doing again?

    I feel more sorry for the invasion 220 years ago.

  6. #6
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Australian Apology To The Aboriginal Population

    We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care, which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.

    We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation, thought and enterprise.

    We feel that we must apologise for building hundreds of homes for you, which you have vandalised and destroyed.

    We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.

    We apologise for developing large farms and properties, which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and starving during droughts.

    We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric to replace that animal skins you used before.

    We apologise for building roads and railway tracks between cities and building cars so that you no longer have to walk over harsh terrain.

    We apologise for paying off your vehicle when you fail to pay the installments

    We apologise for giving you free travel anywhere, whenever.

    We apologise for giving each and every member of your family $100.00 and free travel to attend an aboriginal funeral.

    We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have to pay.

    We apologise for giving you interest free loans.

    We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value.

    We apologise for developing Ayers rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to you so that you get all the money.

    We apologise for allowing taxpayers money paid towards daughters’ wedding ($8,000.00 each daughter)

    We apologise for giving you $1.7 billion per year for your 250,000 people, which is $48,000.00 per aboriginal man, woman and child.

    We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare, medical care, education, etc to the tune of $1.2 billion each year.

    We apologise for you having to approach the aboriginal affairs department to verify the above figures. For the trouble you will have identifying the “uncle toms” in your own community who are getting richer and leaving some of you living in squalor and poverty.

    We do apologise. We really do.

    We humbly beg your forgiveness for all the above sins.

    We are only too happy to take back all the above and return you to the paradise of the “outback”, whenever you are ready.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  7. #7
    CC Candidate Master Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    James Hardie and asbestos was very different.
    Obviously the situation is not identical - the similarity I was going with a different set of physical people being responsible for something done by a previous set of people.

    The Australian Government and community can still be responsible even though they were not personally involved in the process.

    I think there is a lot to be sorry for - if the Sultan of Brunei forcefully removed my children, because he believed he could give them a better life, there would never be forgiveness.

    The Australian Government destroyed a lot of lives with its belief about what was better for Aboriginal children.

  8. #8
    CC Candidate Master Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    We are only too happy to take back all the above and return you to the paradise of the “outback”, whenever you are ready.
    Jono, I thought you were a spiritual man.

    The aboriginal race has been stripped of all its dignity and respect.

    It is hard to recover from there no matter how much support you are given.

  9. #9
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine
    Jono, I thought you were a spiritual man.
    I am a Christian anyway; whether that counts as "spiritual" I can't tell you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine
    The aboriginal race has been stripped of all its dignity and respect.
    That remains to be demonstrated, as well as how exactly they were stripped. Aboriginal Noel Pearson argues that welfare has poisoned his people. Others were stripped of dignity by their own people, i.e. sexually abused, and at least back then they were rescued from abusive situations. Now social workers are afraid to remove kids from dangerous situations in case they are accused of foisting another "stolen generation".

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine
    It is hard to recover from there no matter how much support you are given.
    Strange how many immigrants came here with nothing, received no government welfare, and have prospered through hard work. These immigrants included Jews, who were often stripped of dignity in their home countries to a far worse extent.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine
    The Australian Government destroyed a lot of lives with its belief about what was better for Aboriginal children.
    Yes, back then, unlike now, they believed that it was better for Aboriginal children to be removed if they were being sexually abused.

    As Andrew Bolt has pointed out:

    “I’ve asked, for instance, why I’d say sorry to Lowitja O’Donoghue, the Stolen Generations Alliance’s co-patron. O’Donoghue in fact was dumped at a children’s home by her footloose Irish father, to be educated by missionaries. For what should I say sorry to Peter Gunner, who sought compensation in the Federal Court for being ‘stolen’? Gunner, in fact, was sent to a home in Alice Springs with the written permission of his mother, to get a schooling. For what should I say sorry to Topsy, named by Manne as a ‘stolen’ child? Topsy, in fact, was just 12 when she was found, riddled with syphilis and far from hospitals, schools or police, with her parents unknown. For what should I say sorry to Mary Hooker, another Stolen Generations Alliance spokeswoman? Hooker, in fact, was removed with three of her 11 siblings because welfare officers thought she was neglected and ‘I was raped by my brother’.”

    “For what should I say sorry to Lorna Cubillo, who claimed compensation? Cubillo, in fact, was just seven, with no parents or even known guardian when she was found at a missionary-run ration camp in the bush, and sent to a home and school in Darwin. For what should I say sorry to Molly, portrayed in Rabbit Proof Fence as a girl stolen to ‘breed out the colour’? Molly in fact was taken into care with the agreement of her tribal chief after warnings that she was in danger of sexual abuse and had been ostracised as a half-caste by her tribe. For what should I say sorry to Archie Roach, famous for his song Took the Children Away? Roach, in fact, said yesterday he was removed when he was three because ‘word got around’ he was neglected — his parents weren’t there, and his sister was trying to care for him. For what should I say sorry to all the ‘stolen children’ like these - activist Robert Riley, whose mother dumped him at a home; author Mudrooroo Narogin, who turned out to be neither stolen nor Aboriginal; claimant Joy Williams, whose mother gave away her illegitimate girl; bureaucrat Charlie Perkins, whose mother asked a boarding school to help her gifted boy; and ‘stolen generations’ leader Annette Peardon, whose mother was jailed for three months for neglecting her children.”
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  11. #11
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Strange how many immigrants came here with nothing, received no government welfare, and have prospered through hard work. These immigrants included Jews, who were often stripped of dignity in their home countries to a far worse extent.
    Exactly Jono! This is partly my problem. Some FOB could land on Bondi beach today and within a decade own a successful business, a house or two, a car and even have kids in the Ivy League.

    Plus, being a blow-in I am disturbed by the notion of apologising for things I had not done.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care, which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.

    We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation, thought and enterprise.

    We feel that we must apologise for building hundreds of homes for you, which you have vandalised and destroyed.

    We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.

    We apologise for developing large farms and properties, which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and starving during droughts.

    We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric to replace that animal skins you used before.

    We apologise for building roads and railway tracks between cities and building cars so that you no longer have to walk over harsh terrain.

    We apologise for paying off your vehicle when you fail to pay the installments

    We apologise for giving you free travel anywhere, whenever.

    We apologise for giving each and every member of your family $100.00 and free travel to attend an aboriginal funeral.

    We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have to pay.

    We apologise for giving you interest free loans.

    We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value.

    We apologise for developing Ayers rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to you so that you get all the money.

    We apologise for allowing taxpayers money paid towards daughters’ wedding ($8,000.00 each daughter)

    We apologise for giving you $1.7 billion per year for your 250,000 people, which is $48,000.00 per aboriginal man, woman and child.

    We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare, medical care, education, etc to the tune of $1.2 billion each year.

    We apologise for you having to approach the aboriginal affairs department to verify the above figures. For the trouble you will have identifying the “uncle toms” in your own community who are getting richer and leaving some of you living in squalor and poverty.

    We do apologise. We really do.

    We humbly beg your forgiveness for all the above sins.

    We are only too happy to take back all the above and return you to the paradise of the “outback”, whenever you are ready.
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  13. #13
    CC FIDE Master Phil Bourke's Avatar
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    Jono only misses one very salient point, before 1788 the 'outback' stretched all over the land, the idea that Aboriginals lived in outback desert regions is a legacy of European settlement that drove them further inland to escape persecution.
    I feel for the Aboriginals and any misjustice that befell them, just the same as I feel sorry for my ancestors who were deported to this land as punishment for stealing bread to feed themselves, just the same as I feel sorry for any refugee that has to leave their home country to escape persecution.
    But to to say sorry for all of this isn't my responsibility, neither do I wish to be held financially responsible in any shape or form, what I will say is that I will do my utmost to see everyone get a fair go and not suffer the same injustice as some of our predecessors did. I think there is even an element among the Aboriginal community that feels that the government should be saying sorry for creating the welfare community that has made things worse not better. All the same though, there are white and black members of that welfare community, so perhaps this isn't a race issue after all.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation, thought and enterprise.

    ...

    We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.
    I take it Jono that you are arguing that the indigenous people's way of life before 1788 was inferior to European civilisation.

    The belief that one's own culture / religion / etc. is superior to others has been the cause of many of the genocides in history. It is unfortunate that the 'thought and enterprise' bestowed by European civilisation has not resulted in people being more open-minded and accepting of difference.

    Furthermore, your suggestion that indigenous people have a predisposition to slaughtering each other is insulting. The unfortunate occurrence of people killing each other is common to all of humankind. You certainly cannot blame the indigenous people for the millions of people killed in the World Wars, or the scores of people who are murdered in Australia each year.

  15. #15
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse
    I take it Jono that you are arguing that the indigenous people's way of life before 1788 was inferior to European civilisation.
    Of course. Why do you think that Aborigines are using European categories and technology to travel and broadcast their demands for monetary compensation?

    I also think that the Nazi culture of racism and antisemitism and denial of human rights was inferior to the culture of the allies. I think that the Southern US culture that had Jim Crow Laws was inferior. Pretending to respect all cultures are equal is nonsensical, and means that "respect" loses all meaning.

    This is a totally different thing from claiming that the European race is superior. Check out the books Race and Culture and Conquests and Culture by Thomas Sowell, himself black. He points out that cultural capital is the most important factor in explaining successes and failures of different people groups.

    Race is clearly not a factor, given that the Chinese were the most advanced civilization in Marco Polo's time, but were well behind Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries, although the racial composition was unchanged. Also, while Southern blacks had lower IQ scores when enlisting for the US Army in WW1, Southern whites had lower scores than Northern blacks; here again it was the Northern culture that was most conducive to education.

    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse
    The belief that one's own culture / religion / etc. is superior to others has been the cause of many of the genocides in history.
    Name some.

    But the recognition by the Scots after Culloden and the 19th century Japanese that their own cultures were backward compared to England and America led to their advancement, since they were determined to do something about it. The Scots became world leaders in economics, technology, and medicine; and the Japanese grew rapidly to become powerful enough to defeat the Russians at Tsushima in 1905. Conversely, China fell behind while convinced that their culture was superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse
    It is unfortunate that the 'thought and enterprise' bestowed by European civilisation has not resulted in people being more open-minded and accepting of difference.
    Actually, you are using terms like "open-minded and accepting of difference" that were only found in the Western culture you denigrate. Such ideas were foreign to other cultures, including the Aboriginal tribal culture. So you are unwittingly supporting the superiority of Western civilization in your very acts of denying it: leftist self-refutation is most amusing to behold.

    Many Asian countries have far stricter immigration policies, and Malaysia practises apartheid against the Chinese in their bumi-putra laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse
    Furthermore, your suggestion that indigenous people have a predisposition to slaughtering each other is insulting. The unfortunate occurrence of people killing each other is common to all of humankind.
    Yes it is. So we should investigate why Western civilization, which is politically correct to denigrate, overcame many of these problems, most notable slavery. Instead, the Black Armband activists blame the West for problems that were ubiquitous, i.e. doing exactly what you profess to decry.

    It is not enough to say that it became the most powerful civilization without understanding why. Rodney Stark explains in his books For The Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-hunts and the End of Slavery (reviewed in The biblical origins of science) and The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success (2005, reviewed in Christianity as progress).

    It's notable that slavery was first abolished in the West thanks to people like Wilberforce, who would be denounced as "religious right" today, funded by businessment, then imposed on the rest of the world through the imperialist British navy imposing their anti-slavery morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse
    You certainly cannot blame the indigenous people for the millions of people killed in the World Wars,
    I don't know anyone who does.

    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse
    or the scores of people who are murdered in Australia each year.
    But who should we blame for the widespread sexual abuse and alcoholism in Aboriginal communities? No white people are forcing aboriginals to abuse children or drink themselves silly.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 13-02-2008 at 01:13 PM.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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