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  1. #31
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    Evolutionist libertarian points out that school choice would avoid conflict

    A Libertarian Solution to Evolution Education Controversy: No More Public Schools
    By Brandon Keim
    January 23, 2008

    ‘the key source of the school wars we and others have experienced has always been compulsion: forcing people to either send their children to or pay for schooling that violates their convictions. When there is no compulsion, conflict is relatively insignificant. Consider other marketplaces, such as the one for religion. Do Protestants picket outside synagogues saying, “No, Jesus wasn’t just some guy, he was God!!!!” Nope. Despite the fact that people often feel very strongly about their religious views, it’s live and let live, because there is no compulsion in the religious marketplace.

    ‘Liberals, ironically, think that a liberal education system based on parental choice would be socially divisive. They have it exactly backwards: it is the compelled conformity of a single officially-established school system that is socially divisive. Individual freedom in other areas of American life, especially religion, is the reason we have had such a comparatively stable and peaceful society. If we got rid of the one significant remaining area of cultural and ideological compulsion, the official school monopoly, the current red vs. blue animosity would lessen substantially (though of course there are reasons why it wouldn’t go away entirely).’
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  2. #32
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    I think you should make a new account called "JonoNewsbot" so I won't bother to click on new posts made by it.

  3. #33
    CC International Master TheJoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    I think if government gives money it spends on public school directly to parents, overall standard of schools (including public) will improve significantly. Private schools will become much more affordable then now as well.

    What makes you think that the private sector can deliver better value for money. I agree many private schools deliver better education but they have a much larger expenditure. I'd like to see some stats that show that they deliver better outcomes with equal expenditure per capita (student).

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    A Libertarian Solution to Evolution Education Controversy: No More Public Schools
    By Brandon Keim
    January 23, 2008

    ‘the key source of the school wars we and others have experienced has always been compulsion: forcing people to either send their children to or pay for schooling that violates their convictions. When there is no compulsion, conflict is relatively insignificant. Consider other marketplaces, such as the one for religion. Do Protestants picket outside synagogues saying, “No, Jesus wasn’t just some guy, he was God!!!!” Nope. Despite the fact that people often feel very strongly about their religious views, it’s live and let live, because there is no compulsion in the religious marketplace.

    ‘Liberals, ironically, think that a liberal education system based on parental choice would be socially divisive. They have it exactly backwards: it is the compelled conformity of a single officially-established school system that is socially divisive. Individual freedom in other areas of American life, especially religion, is the reason we have had such a comparatively stable and peaceful society. If we got rid of the one significant remaining area of cultural and ideological compulsion, the official school monopoly, the current red vs. blue animosity would lessen substantially (though of course there are reasons why it wouldn’t go away entirely).’
    Just quickly Jono want to point out that I have no problem with private schools operating in tandem with public schools.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Just quickly Jono want to point out that I have no problem with private schools operating in tandem with public schools.
    But I have a problem with parents paying for their own kids' education as well as being forced to pay for other kids' education, while parents of those other kids don't reciprocate.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    What makes you think that the private sector can deliver better value for money.
    Let me list all the things that the private sector does better: food, drink, computers, cars, appliances, houses, gardens, clothes, communications, entertainment ...

    And if you list the things that are wrong in this country, it's almost inevitable that government is behind it, e.g. water shortage, roads that are always congested, money-losing public transport, crappy subsidised modern "art", Centrelink, airport Gestapo who allow test bombs through but are great at confiscating water bottles, petrol shortages in Carter's America, electricity shortages in Gray Davis's California.

    So should we run our schools like the first list where there is high quality product at good prices and with good service; or the second list that's rife with waste, inefficiency and crappy service?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    I agree many private schools deliver better education but they have a much larger expenditure.
    Actually, they often have lower expenditure since they don't have to spend on the educracy. But if the government paid parents (or even better, gave them tax rebates) instead of under-performing schools, more schools would deliver better education—they would have to if they wanted to attract students.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    I'd like to see some stats that show that they deliver better outcomes with equal expenditure per capita (student).
    Sowell has argued with reason that vouchers would be cheaper than the cost per student at state schools.

    It's also notable that many Leftists who oppose vouchers send their own kids to the best private schools that money can buy, the hypocrites. So once again, leftist policies actually hurt the poor and middle class, while the very wealthy can get around them.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Not a problem in a free market system..
    Interesting thn I wonder why Alan Greenspan would say that it is a problem? Then again I am sure you know better Jono


    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    I am unhappy with high taxes, water shortage, people dying on hospital waiting lists, people graduating from schools unable to read and write.
    Firstly Australia has one of highest literacy (and numeracy) rates in the world. So I am not sure what you are talking about there, maybe its an arguement you picked up frm the US who are quite away behind Australia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    More likely, they would increase overall service, because to be profitable you have to serve more customers. Unprofitable services generally mean that people don't want them enough.
    How are you going to serve rural areas that don't have the customer base to be profitable. Or should we abandon agriculture and all live in the city?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Privatization of water has been tried and succeeded, as I've cited before. Private schools are often better than public ones. Private airport security has also worked well.
    I will show that privatisation providing better service to the end user is often a fallacy. While it can often deliver efficiencies rarely does this deliver savings to the consumer as more often than not it negated by the need to deliver continual increases profits to the shareholders. But I demonstrate more when I put together the stats I promised


    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Couldn't get much worse. But if the government gave a tax rebate for school tuition, then only the schools that perform would attract students. Competition will result in better education, just as it results in better supermarkets and everything else.
    We have competition at the moment both between private schools themselves and between private and public schools. I would like to evidence the private schools are delivering better outcomes based on the same expenditure per capita.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    More likely, do you think it's fair to a child that he is stuck in a poor quality school because that's where he is zoned, and because his parents' taxes pay mainly for public schools.

    Imagine if his family had to go to the supermarket they were zoned for. Do you think there would be good variety, quality and value, if the supermarket were guaranteed customers by government decree? No, it's only competition that forces them to lift their game.
    Agree with you zoning could be removed no problem with that. But how do you select which students can attend the school assuming your demand is greater than supply?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    But I have a problem with parents paying for their own kids' education as well as being forced to pay for other kids' education, while parents of those other kids don't reciprocate.
    In fact I think you will find that great deal of government funding goes to private schools.

    Rather have that situation than see one where a child might not be able to afford to go to school at all.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Interesting thn I wonder why Alan Greenspan would say that it is a problem? Then again I am sure you know better Jono
    OK, then define 'fair'. I think it's fair that people keep more of what they earn, especially the large earnings possible when they can give many people what they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Firstly Australia has one of highest literacy (and numeracy) rates in the world. So I am not sure what you are talking about there, maybe its an arguement you picked up frm the US who are quite away behind Australia.
    Actually, even here the uni lecturers are complaining of the poor English of students.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    How are you going to serve rural areas that don't have the customer base to be profitable.
    What you mean is forcing people in the city to fund people in the country, even though many country people are wealthier than many city folk.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Or should we abandon agriculture and all live in the city?
    Actually, that's basically what we have done. Far more efficient farming and agriculture has made it possible that a far lower percentage of our workforce is needed to grow our food. This in turn has provided a workforce for new booming industries.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    I will show that privatisation providing better service to the end user is often a fallacy.
    Often? Rarely, more like it. And you would replace it with government that often provides crappy service, simply because a government bureaucrat has no incentive to deliver good service. But a private company must give good service or go out of business.

    Certainly private companies are not perfect, because humans are not perfect. But it is folly to use imperfections in the private sector to justify government control, where gross imperfections are endemic and should be expected given the perverse incentives.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    While it can often deliver efficiencies rarely does this deliver savings to the consumer as more often than not it negated by the need to deliver continual increases profits to the shareholders.
    And why is this a bad thing? Not all shareholders are filthy rich. Most of them are not wealthy but hold shares indirectly through super funds. So increased profits help support retirees.

    But the only way to deliver these increased profits is to sell more to consumers, which means they must persuade consumers to buy. And they do that by increasing quality and reducing price.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    We have competition at the moment both between private schools themselves and between private and public schools.
    Not fair competition, because parents are force to pay for public schools even if they send their own kids to private schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Agree with you zoning could be removed no problem with that. But how do you select which students can attend the school assuming your demand is greater than supply?
    If there is demand, there is an incentive to supply.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Let me list all the things that the private sector does better: food, drink, computers, cars, appliances, houses, gardens, clothes, communications, entertainment ...

    And if you list the things that are wrong in this country, it's almost inevitable that government is behind it, e.g. water shortage, roads that are always congested, money-losing public transport, crappy subsidised modern "art", Centrelink, airport Gestapo who allow test bombs through but are great at confiscating water bottles, petrol shortages in Carter's America, electricity shortages in Gray Davis's California.

    So should we run our schools like the first list where there is high quality product at good prices and with good service; or the second list that's rife with waste, inefficiency and crappy service?


    Actually, they often have lower expenditure since they don't have to spend on the educracy. But if the government paid parents (or even better, gave them tax rebates) instead of under-performing schools, more schools would deliver better education—they would have to if they wanted to attract students.


    Sowell has argued with reason that vouchers would be cheaper than the cost per student at state schools.

    It's also notable that many Leftists who oppose vouchers send their own kids to the best private schools that money can buy, the hypocrites. So once again, leftist policies actually hurt the poor and middle class, while the very wealthy can get around them.
    Show me some stats and from Australia not the US we all know that there school system is up the sh*t.

    Have a look at which countries top with world in education statistics and then tell me if they are predominately public or private schooling systems.

  11. #41
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    Economic Freedom Ratings for OECD countries based on Jono's list

    1. Switzerland
    2. USA
    3. UK
    4. Canada
    5. Ireland
    6. Australia


    OECD Stats
    GDP per Hour worked
    You would expect that the countries with the most economic freedoms (free from all that gov interference will be the most efficient)

    1. Luxembourg
    2. Norway
    3. Belgium
    4. Ireland
    5. Netherlands
    6. France
    7. United States
    8. Germany
    9. Sweden
    10. Denmark
    11. Australia
    12. Austria
    13. Finland
    14. Canada
    15. United Kingdom
    16. Switzerland
    17. Spain
    18. Italy
    19. Iceland
    20. Japan
    21. New Zealand

    So with Switzerland the most "economically free" country in the world in 16th we could say that efficiency of business is not related directly to economic freedom.

    Real Hourly minimum wages

    1. Luxembourg
    2. France
    3. Netherlands
    4. Ireland
    5. Belgium
    6. Australia
    7. United Kingdom
    8. Japan
    9. New Zealand
    10. Canada
    11. United States

    Switzerland didn't have any stats available in this cat. but the USA our No.2 on the economic freedom index is in 11th suggesting that economic freedoms alone will not increase minimum wage.

    Minimum wage as a percentage of median wage
    1. Australia
    2. Luxembourg
    3. Netherlands
    4. Belgium
    5. New Zealand
    6. Slovak Republic
    7. United Kingdom
    8. Turkey
    9. Canada
    10. Poland
    11. Ireland
    12. Czech Republic
    13. United States

    The US at the bottom of the table, could possibily indicate that Greenspan's concern that a free market approach causes concerntration of wealth and widens the gap between the rich and the poor, is valid.


    But what about that all important unemployment rate (lowest first)
    1. Iceland
    2. Denmark
    3. Norway
    4. Korea
    5. Mexico
    6. Switzerland
    7. Japan
    8. Netherlands
    9. New Zealand
    10. Luxembourg
    11. United States
    12. Australia
    13. Sweden
    14. Austria
    15. United Kingdom
    16. Canada

    Again the countries with the highest economic freedom don't top the list.


    A good judge of the standard of living is the hours worked. Where the standard of living is good people, work less and enjoy the benefits more.

    Average Hours worked per person in total employment (lowest first)

    1. Netherlands
    2. Norway
    3. Germany
    4. France
    5. Belgium
    6. Denmark
    7. Sweden
    8. Luxembourg
    9. Ireland
    10. Austria
    11. United Kingdom
    12. Australia
    13. Finland
    14. Canada
    15. Slovak Republic
    16. Portugal
    17. Spain
    18. Japan
    19. New Zealand
    20. Italy
    21. United States

    Wow the USA the second most economically free country in the OECD and they have longer working hours than almost anyone else! Maybe the cost of living there is pretty high?

    Well I could show plenty more stats but check them out yourself at the OECD database. It is a great resource to cut through all the hyerbole you hear the media and politician's.

    I don't think striving for total economic freedom in fundamentalist free market appraoch is going to deliver the outcomes for society that at least I am looking (e.g. a high standard of living for all). I'll be sticking with the regulated market approach. I can only hope this explosion in libertarianism is just a passing fad. Anyway they won't get my vote.
    Last edited by TheJoker; 24-01-2008 at 09:42 PM.

  12. #42
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    Home-schooling

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Imagine what would happen to Australia's literacy rate if we closed all the public schools. Do you think it fair to say to a child because you were born to parents who dont have a well paid job and cannot afford to send you to a private school you are not entitled to an education (or at least a reasonable quality one)?
    Another option, which my wife and I pursued, is home-schooling. I think this is a very valid option, especially for those who cannot afford private schools.
    Was interested in your adaptation of my sig quote - but as Jono said I don't think your analogies hold up.
    Last edited by Adamski; 24-01-2008 at 10:10 PM.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono2
    Another option, which my wife and pursued, is home-schooling. I think this is a very valid option, especially for those who cannot afford private schools.
    Was interested in your adaptation of my sig quote - but as Jono said I don't think your analogies hold up.
    It's such a fantastic quote just had to try and squeeze it in

    Home schooling is can be an option for those who have the skills and time to invest in it
    Last edited by TheJoker; 24-01-2008 at 10:15 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    So with Switzerland the most "economically free" country in the world in 16th we could say that efficiency of business is not related directly to economic freedom.
    Who says that hours worked mean most efficient? Efficiency usually means output per man hour, so without the output, we can't know the efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Switzerland didn't have any stats available in this cat. but the USA our No.2 on the economic freedom index is in 11th suggesting that economic freedoms alone will not increase minimum wage.
    So? The minimum wage is actually zero. Busybodies can legislate that an employee is verboten to pay below a certain amount, but can't legislate to force an employer to employ someone whose productivity is worth less. So teenagers are denied a valuable stepping stone to higher wages with the experience such a job would have given them (punctuality, appearance, following instructions, customer service).

    Interesting that even under your own assumptions, the economically free are all fairly high up in the minimum wage stakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    The US at the bottom of the table, could possibily indicate that Greenspan's concern that a free market approach causes concerntration of wealth and widens the gap between the rich and the poor, is valid.
    Who cares about the gap? Leftists would whinge if a genie magically doubled everyone's real wealth, because that would double the gap between rich and poor!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Again the countries with the highest economic freedom don't top the list.
    The freedom is in several categories. Note that the ones with the highest minimum wages didn't top this list, which is not surprising to anyone with basic economic knowledge of supply and demand: price floors lead to surpluses, and a surplus of labor = unemployment.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Wow the USA the second most economically free country in the OECD and they have longer working hours than almost anyone else! Maybe the cost of living there is pretty high?
    You've gotta be kidding. Most things are more expensive here than there. And the "hours per week" means little; France for example can't sustain it and the new President plans to change it. And some of the other countries high up in this list have similarly feather-bedded employment practices which is why they are not near the top of your unemployment list. I.e. if an employer must cover so many benefits and can't easily dismiss a useless employee, he will be more reluctant to hire more.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    I don't think striving for total economic freedom in fundamentalist free market
    Translation: I have the right to stop free people buying and selling if I think I know what's good for them better than they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    appraoch is going to deliver the outcomes for society that at least I am looking (e.g. a high standard of living for all).
    In practice, your lefty ideas lead to low standard of living for all but the well connected.
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  15. #45
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    Hypocrisy of anti-homeschooling bigots

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono2
    Another option, which my wife and I pursued, is home-schooling. I think this is a very valid option, especially for those who cannot afford private schools.
    Definitely. The proposed vouchers (or better, tax rebates) should be allowed to cover homeschool expenses too.

    It's interesting that in Brisbane's last Sunday Mail, the educracy was whinging that parents aren't doing enough to teach their kids proper social skills, since the teachers should only have to teach their subject not teach them social skills. So how come the same educrats also denounce home-schooling on the grounds that kids won't be properly socialized?

    Previously, the teachers unions were whinging that parents aren't doing enough to contribute towards their kids' learning in reading and maths. Once again, they would also denounce homeschooling because parents aren't qualified teachers.
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