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  1. #1
    CC International Master TheJoker's Avatar
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    free market, media etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, now Estonia are prosperous countries where the government basically restricts itself to restraining fraud and coercion, not controlling prices. Australia and NZ also became far more prosperous when their economies were significantly deregulated in the last quarter century.
    None of these countries have an unregulated markets. The government in these countries does not just restrict itself to preventing fraud and coercion. Think safety regulations, think health regulations etc. They may not restrict trade in the protectionist sense but they definately regulate what can and cannot be sold in the market place to at least some degree. I definately can't go and buy small arms in a Hong Kong shopping mall.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Already tried that: think of the failed centrally planned economy of the USSR.
    We are talking about the necessity of governement regulation in a market economy, it has nothing to do with the centrally planned model, which I agree turned out to be a failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    According to its founders, America was NOT meant to be a democracy. This is pretty clear in their writings. They did not want a tyranny of the majority, nor did they want short-term waves of public opinion to influence the long-term good. Unfortunately, that is happening anyway as the government has expanded.
    So bascially irrelevant!


    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    The free market works well in providing most things we need. Indeed, it's where we have shortages and poor quality, you can be sure that government price controls are behind it. This applies to the current water shortage in Australia, Jimmy Carter's petrol lines, California's electricity shortages, and waiting lists for hospitals.
    It is not always about price controls the governement also regulates the standard of goods to be sold on the market. Imagine a pharmacutical industry with no regulation



    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    This allegedly "knee jerk" is to allow people to make their own decisions.
    Sorry Jono but you have a limited right to make your own decisions, and rightly so. If you want to act as a complete individual then go live on a deserted island somewhere.


    [QUOTE=Jono]Certainly in capitalism there must be "creative destruction" of businesses that fail to serve the consumer.[QUOTE=Jono]

    Has nothing to do with the fact that economic transactions need to be regulated. Off topic again.


    [QUOTE=Jono]No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono

    This is because you don't understand economics. Why do you think the US government intervened when China tried to buy up Unical. Find me an economist who thinks that it was in the US economic interest to let that transaction go through.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Government regulation is almost always the problem, not the solution.
    A matter of opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Pretty much. Maybe a safety net with a negative taxation for low income earners. Very few things can be provided better by government than a free market.

    E.g. Friedman pointed out that regulatory bodies, by the nature of their incentives, inevitably cause more harm than good. E.g. e.g. think of the incentives for a bureaucrat in the drug approval department (in America, the FDA). If he approves a drug and a number of people suffer bad effects, he will be vilified or worse. But if he withholds approval, he will not be vilified by the people who die but might have been saved by the drug. Hence the results are more people dying with the regulatory body in place. This is born out by the naive reports about how after 10 years of scrutiny, the FDA has approved a drug that will save 10,000 lives per year. No one stops to think of the 100,000 lives that were lost because of their tardy approval over the previous 10 years.
    Think of the un-regulated alternative. A drug company develops a weight loss, short term it works fantastically with the potentional to make the company billions of dollars. the possibly un-tested drug (considering your zero regulation approach) in the long term causes kidney disease. Drug comapnies have already been known to farm out drugs with negative side effects (resulting a numerous deaths) to less regulated countries to make a quick profit.


    Perhaps you should read decent economists like Milton Friedman or Thomas Sowell,
    I am not talking about planned economies but interventionism. You should read other decent ecomonists like John Maynard Keynes or more recently Paul Krugman so you can understand the counter arguement.
    Last edited by TheJoker; 22-01-2008 at 06:27 PM.

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    None of these countries have an unregulated markets. The government in these countries does not just restrict itself to preventing fraud and coercion. Think safety regulations, think health regulations etc.
    In many cases, the private sector is way ahead.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    They may not restrict trade in the protectionist sense but they definately regulate what can and cannot be sold in the market place to at least some degree. I definately can't go and buy small arms in a Hong Kong shopping mall.
    Regulation of weapons is a different issue, since they can definitely hurt people. But laws against guns mean that only the lawless will have guns, as Jefferson pointed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    So bascially irrelevant!
    Nope, FDR expanded government in defiance of the Constitution, and prolonged the Great Depression, as many economists argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    It is not always about price controls the governement also regulates the standard of goods to be sold on the market. Imagine a pharmacutical industry with no regulation
    The free market punishes those with poor products. As I've said, the incentives of regulatory bureaucrats mean that they are quite likely to cause more harm than good by withholding approval of good drugs. E.g. many lives were lost because the drug regulators forbade American pharmaceutical companies from advertising the beneficial blood-thinning properties of aspirin for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    I am not talking about planned economies but interventionism.
    Intervention is a step on the 'road to serfdom' of planned economies. Regulation begets regulation. Many times, the government steps in to solve problems that government created in the first place! Economist Dr Walter Williams points out that the current sub-prime crisis was created by a government decree, and the current government bailout will generate more problems:

    As with most economic problems, we find the hand of government. The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, whose provisions were strengthened during the Clinton administration, is a federal law that mandates lenders to offer credit throughout their entire market and discourages them from restricting their credit services to high-income markets, a practice known as redlining. In other words, the Community Reinvestment Act encourages banks and thrifts to make loans to riskier customers.



    The Bush bailout, as well as Federal Reserve Bank cuts in interest rates, is a wealth transfer from creditworthy people and taxpayers to those who made ill-advised credit decisions, and that includes banks as well as borrowers. According to Temple University professor of economics William Dunkelberg, 96 percent of all mortgages are being paid on time. Thirty percent of American homeowners have no mortgage. Delinquency rates were higher in the 1980s than they are today. Only 2 to 3 percent of all mortgages are in foreclosure. The government bailout helps a few people at a huge cost to the rest of the economy.

    Government policy got us into the subprime mess and government's measure to fix the mess is going to create more mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    You should read other decent ecomonists like John Maynard Keynes or more recently Paul Krugman so you can understand the counter arguement.
    Keynes' policies proved to be a failure, prolonging the Depression and leading to Carter's stagflation. So the market model of people like Friedman gained ascendancy with Thatcher, Reagan, Keating and Douglas (NZ), and more recently in Estonia, resulting in huge economic growth.

    Enron-adviser Krugman becomes corrupted by his writing for the Stalin-whitewashing New York Times, and pretend that his leftist Bush-hating politics are the result of sound economics. The Economist, 13 Nov 2003, wrote:

    A glance through his past columns reveals a growing tendency to attribute all the world's ills to George Bush…Even his economics is sometimes stretched…Overall, the effect is to give lay readers the illusion that Mr Krugman's perfectly respectable personal political beliefs can somehow be derived empirically from economic theory.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 22-01-2008 at 07:37 PM.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Free economies are wealthies and healthiest

    A Freer World is a Better World
    By John Stossel

    For years, Gwartney and Robert Lawson of Capital University have compiled an index showing the solid relationship between economic freedom and economic growth. The latest index, covering 2005, was recently published by the Economic Freedom Network, which comprises more than 70 policy institutes worldwide, from Albania to Zambia.

    The story the index tells couldn't be clearer: Economic freedom produces high living standards.

    ...

    What is economic freedom exactly? As the report puts it, "individuals have economic freedom when they are free to use, exchange, or give their property as long as their actions do not violate the identical rights of others."

    The researchers ranked countries according to five criteria: size of government, security of property, access to sound money, freedom to trade internationally and level of regulation.

    The top five freest countries in 2005 were Hong Kong, Singapore, New Zealand, Switzerland and the United States. That's a slight slip for the United States, which in 2004 came in third. We've never placed higher than second (in 2000).

    The next five are the United Kingdom, Canada, Estonia, Ireland and Australia. The bottom five are Republic of the Congo, Angola, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Myanmar and Zimbabwe.

    It's hard to miss the point: The freest countries are far more pleasant places in which to live. Countries with little or no economic freedom make life hellish for all but the politicians or dictators in charge (and even for some of them).

    ...

    Gwartney's data show that it's better to be poor in a more-free country than in a less-free country. In the freest countries, the poorest 10 percent earn on average more than $7,300 a year versus $905 in the least free countries. And, of course, in a free society, people often move out of the poorest groups.

    Finally, the study also finds a strong correlation between economic freedom and environmental quality.

    It is beyond dispute. Economic freedom leads to good things, while government coercion leads to poverty and oppression.

    It's stunning that some people still find the free market controversial.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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    CC International Master TheJoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    It is beyond dispute. Economic freedom leads to good things, while government coercion leads to poverty and oppression.

    It's stunning that some people still find the free market controversial.
    Intersting data, not sure how valid the methodology is it did not seem to be cited in many scholarly articles.

    Regardless, just wondering whether the economic stability resulted in the economic freedom rather than vice versa. Any test cases to prove otherwise i.e. a country that went from a position of poor economic stability to economic success just by adopting a fundamentalist free market approach.

    My understanding and i could be wrong was that the IMF tried to implement systems with a great deal of economic freedoms in thrid world countries and it failed. Anyhow like to see an example of an economic turnaround that can be majorly attributed to a fundalmentalist free market approach.

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    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Intersting data, not sure how valid the methodology is it did not seem to be cited in many scholarly articles.
    They explained their methods. And the results are hardly incredible: the most oppressive countries have no private property rights for ordinary people.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Regardless, just wondering whether the economic stability resulted in the economic freedom rather than vice versa.
    How can there be economy stability if people are not free to buy and sell freely? The USSR had no economic freedom, so there were repeated shortages and surpluses. The Great Depression was so prolongued, unlike previous recessions and unlike the 1987 crash in Reagan's time, precisely because the government decided it had to 'do something'. But its constant interference in the marketplace meant that businesses were far less willing to operate in case the rules changed again. Jim Powell pointed this out in his book FDR's Folly.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Any test cases to prove otherwise i.e. a country that went from a position of poor economic stability to economic success just by adopting a fundamentalist free market approach.
    Estonia, as I've explained in my post How Estonia became an economic powerhouse.

    So why don't you try to find a prosperous economy that has loads of government controls?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    My understanding and i could be wrong was that the IMF tried to implement systems with a great deal of economic freedoms in thrid world countries and it failed. Anyhow like to see an example of an economic turnaround that can be majorly attributed to a fundalmentalist free market approach.
    I answered that in my post How private property rights benefit even those without property, by pointing to Hernando de Soto's book The Mystery of Capital: Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else.. Without private property rights, capitalism is bound to fail.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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    CC International Master TheJoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Estonia, as I've explained in my post How Estonia became an economic powerhouse.
    Estonia don't have the "totally" unregulated market you are calling for! See the rest of my post below to explain where I think you have gone wrong in your thinking (i.e. to extreme)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    So why don't you try to find a prosperous economy that has loads of government controls?
    I am not avocating loads of government controls, I am stating that the extremist free market approach you suggest (i.e. the government has "no" regulatory role and provides no serivces except a defense force and criminal justice system) does not exist because it's ludacris hyperbole extolled by neoliberal idiots.

    All the countries at the top of your list have government regulation and public welfare and health programs. You have yet to show me a country that adopts the fundamental free market approach that you are calling for.

    Just like the extremist marxism / communism approaches the opposite extreme market approach would fail. Your lists proves my point regulated market economies (like Australia) are doing fine. The trick is to get the balance right. Not to be extreme in either direction.

    BTW I can see this discussion is going nowhere. Your mind is set in your extremist approach, and I am set in my moderate approach, as far as free markets are concerned.
    Last edited by TheJoker; 23-01-2008 at 09:16 PM.

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    I HAVE TO SAY THE FREE MARKET CAUSES ME MORE PROBLEMS THAN ANY OTHER WITH RESPECT TO MY LIBERTARIAN PHILOSOPHY.

    It seems that free market capitalism has the potential to adversly effect greater concerns of liberty.

    What is the answer ?

    That government assiduously focus on their primary and sole occupation, which is to protect from violence,theft and fraud. Which would include a reining in of corporate monopoly power where it comprimises human liberty as set out in some new consitutional governmental job profile.
    I would also advocate that the personal in this government be paid an amount consistent with the job they have to do, FOR the people. They are employed to perform as per this constitution, and are rewarded justly (ie. millions per year,as are heads of corps etc)

    The answer is smaller govt , but more directed and focused govt on the very matters govts should atend to. ie. those which effect the well being and liberty of the vast majority, not the peripheral,interfering,and big money interests.

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    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    I am not avocating loads of government controls, I am stating that the extremist free market approach you suggest (i.e. the government has "no" regulatory role and provides no serivces except a defense force and criminal justice system) does not exist because it's ludacris [sic] hyperbole extolled by neoliberal idiots.
    Note that I have followed none other than Friedman in advocating welfare via negative taxation. This is mainly because decades of government bureaucratic control of welfare killed off many of the charitable organizations that previously coped with that, and also helped people into work where possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    All the countries at the top of your list have government regulation and public welfare and health programs. You have yet to show me a country that adopts the fundamental free market approach that you are calling for.
    Its notable that the most prosperous countries have cut back sharply on welfare, and the Frogs are going to do the same. There was also much deregution in the free countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    Just like the extremist marxism / communism approaches the opposite extreme market approach would fail. Your lists proves my point regulated market economies (like Australia) are doing fine. The trick is to get the balance right. Not to be extreme in either direction.
    Australia isn't too bad, thanx largely to economic reforms in the direction of the free market, but could be better. The LDP's tax plan would be better than the current system of bracket creep, tax avoidance schemes, and such a complicated tax code that most people use accountants to fill their tax returns. But in the area that first started this thread, we are not doing fine, because sick people are suffering and dying because "ludacris" busybodies won't let them buy a kidney from a willing seller.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoker
    BTW I can see this discussion is going nowhere. Your mind is set in your extremist approach, and I am set in my moderate approach, as far as free markets are concerned.
    "Moderation" is a self-congratulatory slogan not an argument. And there is nothing moderate about interfering in other people's freedom.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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    A poorly worded and weakly argued list of things David Leyonhjelm doesn't like.

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    ^^^ A weakly argued and fact-free critique by a despiser of property rights.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    ^^^ A weakly argued and fact-free critique by a despiser of property rights.
    This issue is actually bound up with the republic debate. Can you have unfettered private property rights in a the present framework of a constitutional monarchy?
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

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    Unions committed treason during WW2, a new book documents

    Unions exposed as war saboteurs
    Miranda Devine
    Sunday, November 03, 2013

    AS the Abbott government begins to take on union power and corruption, a timely new book reveals the union movement’s role in one of the most shameful periods of Australian history.

    What the wharfies did to Australian troops - and their nation’s war effort - between 1939 and 1945 is nothing short of an abomination.

    Perth lawyer Hal Colebatch has done the nation a service with his groundbreaking book, Australia’s Secret War, telling the untold story of union bastardry during World War 2.

    Using diary entries, letters and interviews with key witnesses, he has pieced together with forensic precision the tale of how Australia’s unions sabotaged the war effort, how wharfies vandalised, harassed, and robbed Australian troop ships, and probably cost lives.

    One of the most obscene acts occurred in October, 1945, at the end of the war, after Australian soldiers were released from Japanese prison camps. They were half dead, starving and desperate for home. But when the British aircraft-carrier HMS Speaker brought them into Sydney Harbour, the wharfies went on strike. For 36 hours, the soldiers were forced to remain on-board, tantalisingly close to home. This final act of cruelty from their countrymen was their thanks for all the sacrifice.

    Colebatch coolly recounts outrage after outrage. There were the radio valves pilfered by waterside workers in Townsville which prevented a new radar station at Green Island from operating.

    So when American dive bombers returning from a raid on a Japanese base were caught in an electrical storm and lost their bearings, there was no radio station to guide them to safety. Lost, they ran out of fuel and crashed, killing all 32 airmen.

    Colebatch quotes RAAF serviceman James Ahearn, who served at Green Island, where the Australians had to listen impotently to the doomed Americans’ radio calls:

    “The grief was compounded by the fact that had it not been for the greed and corruption on the Australian waterfront such lives would not have been needlessly lost.”

    Colebatch offers various explanations for the treasonous behaviour of the unions. Many of the leaders were Communists obsessed with class warfare. Fervent “identity politics” led them to believe they were victims, and that servicemen and women were “puppets of capitalism whose lives were of no consequence”.

    Contrary to popular belief, strikes and sabotage continued to the end of the war, even after the Soviet Union became an ally, writes Colebatch, who contends that the Australian Left may have wanted to undermine the military in preparation for revolution after the war.

    Whatever the reasons for the defective morality of those unionists who sabotaged our war effort, the traitors have never been brought to account. This story has been largely suppressed for 70 years because Labor and the Left have successfully controlled the narrative of history.

    No more, thanks to Colebatch.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    ACT’s new Uber rules a step in the right direction
    by Darcy Allen on October 4, 2015 in Economic freedom

    status quo…”

    This debate is becoming tired and unnecessary. As Adam Ceighton expressed on Thursday:

    The idea that governments should be able to stop sentient adults from willingly paying other sentient adults to drive them from A to B is absurd in the extreme.

    Yet this is exactly what a collection of frustrated taxi plate owners and meddlesome bureaucrats has been trying to do since Uber burst on to the scene as a cheaper, more comfortable alternative to Australia’s overpriced, too-often decrepit fleets of taxis.

    To the extent the law renders Uber illegal, the law is a farce.

    The technology is too quick, the incumbents too angry, and the government too slow. This first move by the ACT, however, is a step in the right direction, and should be embraced by other Australian jurisdictions.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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    Capitalism has made the poor and middle class much wealthier in real terms

    Why I Don't Worry about Income Inequality
    We should focus on wealth and opportunity, not the gap
    ISAAC M. MOREHOUSE, 22 October 2015

    In the 1980’s if I told you for only a few hundred dollars anyone could have a $1 million asset in their pocket you’d call me crazy. But here we are.

    The chart above (actually a picture of a chart taken with my iPhone and uploaded to this blog with an app to further emphasize the point) is from the book Bold: How to Go Big, Create Wealth and Impact the World by Peter Diamandis and Steven Kotler. It illustrates why I think worry about and policy efforts aimed at changing differences in income between rich and poor are dumb, destructive, and miss the point by being stuck in a dead paradigm.

    The above chart only scratches the surface. It’s hard to comprehend just how much wealth (not income) we have today compared to 20, 30, or 50 years ago, let alone a century or two ago. Anyone who complains that income gaps are growing misses the miracle under their nose of wealth exploding, and more accessible to individuals at any income level than ever before in human history.

    A good example of this is a far better television now than back in 1954, and for about 8 hours worth of wages instead of ~500.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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