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  1. #1621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    ... Free market advocacy doesn't require martyrdom. ...
    I completely agree, of course. And I assume that you'd agree this also applies to diabetics dying because they can't afford insulin. Your free-market solution may work - but it also might not, and even if it does it will likely take time for competitors to enter the drug market. On the other hand, price controls will solve the problem immediately, and there is no danger of over-consumption in this case.

    So why not introduce price controls now, to save lives, and deal with the other problems later? You keep arguing that the US healthcare system isn't a free market one anyway, so what does it matter if it becomes a bit less free market?

  2. #1622
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I completely agree, of course. And I assume that you'd agree this also applies to diabetics dying because they can't afford insulin.
    I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    So why not introduce price controls now, to save lives, and deal with the other problems later?
    So why not support what the libertarians are proposing, and allow diabetics to import insulin from Canada, now, and save lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    You keep arguing that the US healthcare system isn't a free market one anyway, so what does it matter if it becomes a bit less free market?
    Obviously, I want it to become more free market, because that will bring costs down for all.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  3. #1623
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    But will that put Americans out of work? Will there be Trumpian tariffs?
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  4. #1624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    I do.


    So why not support what the libertarians are proposing, and allow diabetics to import insulin from Canada, now, and save lives?


    Obviously, I want it to become more free market, because that will bring costs down for all.
    I think the core problem that many free market opponents tend to ignore is that it is impossible to have BEST prices without having a free market place without these prices being heavily subsidised. Short-term - all kind of market manipulation is possible but long term. Only free market economy can deliver best productivity/best prices. The concept of self-regulating market place is the core principle of economics.

    This is why those who do not want a Market economy do not really have an argument against it.

    You can have arguments against illegal practices by the companies in order to keep the prices artificially high (should such practices be taking place) but no interference into a marketplace can improve long term productivity.
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  5. #1625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    So why not support what the libertarians are proposing, and allow diabetics to import insulin from Canada, now, and save lives?
    I don't have any problem with people in the US taking advantage of Canadian socialism

    But as this is an obvious admission that price controls work, why not introduce them in the US as well? That would make life much easier for US diabetics.

  6. #1626
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I think the core problem that many free market opponents tend to ignore is that it is impossible to have BEST prices without having a free market place without these prices being heavily subsidised. Short-term - all kind of market manipulation is possible but long term. Only free market economy can deliver best productivity/best prices. The concept of self-regulating market place is the core principle of economics. This is why those who do not want a Market economy do not really have an argument against it. You can have arguments against illegal practices by the companies in order to keep the prices artificially high (should such practices be taking place) but no interference into a marketplace can improve long term productivity.
    That is true in general. But free markets don't work in healthcare, for obvious reasons. If you're seriously ill, you can't shop around

  7. #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    That is true in general. But free markets don't work in healthcare, for obvious reasons. If you're seriously ill, you can't shop around
    There are caretakers etc who can shop on your behalf.
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  8. #1628
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    There are caretakers etc who can shop on your behalf.
    Did you miss the bit where I said that you were seriously ill

  9. #1629
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    Did you miss the bit where I said that you were seriously ill
    It makes me ill just listening to the advertisements of free market aged health care. Just one business has never stopped blanket advertising for years. Why isn't this money being spent instead on caring for customers. There are also never ending stories of neglect of customers due to staff shortages that I conclude the money has been spent on advertising instead. There should not be profit making in health care .
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  10. #1630
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Leftists like Warren reward getting into debt, punish thrify savers

    Angry Father Confronts Stunned Elizabeth Warren over Student Loan Plan—“Am I Going To Get My Money Back?”
    Joe Saunders, Western Journal, 23 Jan 2020

    With only 11 days to go before the Feb. 3 Iowa caucuses, a video is making a splash on social media showing a man furious over the Massachusetts senator’s much-hyped plan to eliminate the estimated $1.6 trillion in student loan debt in the country.

    On her campaign website, Warren makes no bones about her plan to “cancel student loan debt on Day One of my presidency.” [I.e. pass the debt on to taxpayers who may not have the benefits of a university education.—C.F.]

    “My daughter’s getting out of school, I saved all my money, so she doesn’t have any student debt,” the man told Warren. “Am I going to get my money back?”

    “Of course not,” the Massachusetts senator responded.

    “So you’re going to pay for people who didn’t save some money and those of us who did the right thing get screwed?” the father asked.

    For Warren, there’s no way around the point. By vowing to use the powers of the presidency to end student loan debts for those who owe, it’s unavoidable that she’s not only being unfair to those who paid their debts like responsible, honest adults, but she’s also devaluing the sacrifice of those who’ve moved heaven and earth to avoid going into debt in the first place—either for their own sake or for the sake of their children.

    It’s a classic case of punishing behavior that should be rewarded—if nothing else by leaving Americans free to enjoy the fruits of their own labors.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  11. #1631
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    I don't have any problem with people in the US taking advantage of Canadian socialism

    But as this is an obvious admission that price controls work, why not introduce them in the US as well? That would make life much easier for US diabetics.
    That is typical of you leftists: you have never disliked any policy that takes money and freedom from individuals and increases the power of politicians and bureaucrats.

    An alternative is to remove the USA government roadblocks to getting cheaper insulin, as I have already explained here. As usual, you leftists blame the free market for things that are really the fault of government regulations.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  12. #1632
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Byrom View Post
    That is true in general. But free markets don't work in healthcare, for obvious reasons.
    Of course they do, as I've already pointed out. This is demonstrated by the fact that procedures that are not subsidized by government or covered by insurance, so patients can assess prices directly and thus shop around, have been increasing in quality and decreasing in price, such as lasik and cosmetic surgery.

    The Trump administration has directed that hospitals must be up-front with prices, so patients can shop around. A free market requires price transparency. Of course the hospital lobby is fighting price transparency, because they enjoy the government-enabled way they can hide prices from consumers until the treatment has occurred, then sock them with surprise bills. Contrast this with places such as the Surgery Center of Oklahoma, where the total price is up-front, and several times cheaper than the alternative.

    If Australia had the Soviet system of socialized groceries for decades, with all their shortages and poor quality, the likes of PB would still oppose a free market in food supply, asking how people could be fed if the government didn't provide?
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  13. #1633
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist View Post
    It makes me ill just listening to the advertisements of free market aged health care. Just one business has never stopped blanket advertising for years. Why isn't this money being spent instead on caring for customers. There are also never ending stories of neglect of customers due to staff shortages that I conclude the money has been spent on advertising instead. There should not be profit making in health care .
    Why not ask instead: why is taxpayer money spent on bloating the health and hospital bureaucracies instead of on more doctors, nurses, technicians, and equipment?
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  14. #1634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    That is typical of you leftists: you have never disliked any policy that takes money and freedom from individuals and increases the power of politicians and bureaucrats.
    I'm removing money and freedom from diabetics by supplying them with cheaper insulin and saving their lives - got it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    An alternative is to remove the USA government roadblocks to getting cheaper insulin, as I have already explained here. As usual, you leftists blame the free market for things that are really the fault of government regulations.
    You mean removing the roadblocks that stop people getting cheaper insulin from Canada

  15. #1635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Of course they do, as I've already pointed out. This is demonstrated by the fact that procedures that are not subsidized by government or covered by insurance, so patients can assess prices directly and thus shop around, have been increasing in quality and decreasing in price, such as lasik and cosmetic surgery.
    Those are optional procedures. You can't "shop around" if you're severely ill, as I pointed out to Michael.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    If Australia had the Soviet system of socialized groceries for decades, with all their shortages and poor quality, the likes of PB would still oppose a free market in food supply, asking how people could be fed if the government didn't provide?
    But healthcare in Australia or the UK doesn't suffer from shortages or poor quality. Socialised medicine is demonstrably better than any actual alternative.

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