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  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Not necessary to this discussion Spiny.
    No, not necessary, but I am curious ... can you conceive of a test which you personally would find convincing? If so, what would such a test look like? Why would God participate?

    Here's a few examples that I personally find sufficient:

    1. Lets say my daughter dies prematurely. Someone comes and prays for her. She lives again.

    2. I pray and ask God to reveal Himself to me. After praying, I find that I have a perception of His existence which was not previously there.

    How 'bout you?
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiny Norman
    No, not necessary, but I am curious ... can you conceive of a test which you personally would find convincing?
    As long as we are on interesting questions, how about you give your run of what evidence you would take as refuting your belief in a (Christian) God?

    And my run on what would convince me, well, my first inclination is I would be convinced by a convincing argument!

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    As long as we are on interesting questions, how about you give your run of what evidence you would take as refuting your belief in a (Christian) God?
    Producing the body of Christ would have done it. But neither the Romans nor the Jewish leaders could do so. Because it was no longer dead!
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I didn't doubt some knowledge was learned ni those times. Particularly prior to the rise of Rome. The Roman world was not conducive to learning and the dark ages wiped out much of the knowledge created and acquired by the greeks prior to Rome's ascendancy.
    The idea of a "dark age" is 19th century revisionism. The Church kept much knowledge alive, and saw much technological advance. The stirrup and pommelled saddle revolutionized both cavalry warfare and plowing. Water and wind power was developed, and architectural feats of genius, such as the flying buttress, built huge cathedrals. Buridan, who I've already mentioned for his ingenious solution of liar paradoxes, challenged Aristotelian physics, and his notion of "impetus" was a fore-runner to Galileo's "inertia" and Newton's 1st Law of motion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    The undisputable fact is that without science people did not have a systematic way of evaluating claims and greater superstition and beliefs that no one today entertains, were common place.
    It was Christian Europe that was the birthplace of modern science. Science was stillborn in Greece and China, for example. See for example For The Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-hunts and the End of Slavery by Rodney Stark

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Either way your objection carries no weight as your position is: People at the time COULD have found evidence but didn't, therefore the resurrection is a fact.
    So what happened to the body then? Or are you going to bore us all with more chronological snobbery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I certainly can't be held responsible for the lack of scientific method in Judea 2000 years ago. It was hardly a center of learning and enlightenment.
    How much learning do you need to know whether a body is dead or alive? The Romans, unlike most modern westerners shielded from the harsh reality of bodily changes after death, knew what death looked like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    It was a troublesome outer province of the Roman Empire with a native population that was bordering on revolution. It was a place of harsh and swift justice, death was common place and the authorities did not have the time or manpower to conduct coronial inquiries.
    Come off it. They were anxious to put down new religions that threatened the supremacy of Caesar.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  5. #5
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiny Norman
    No, not necessary, but I am curious ... can you conceive of a test which you personally would find convincing? If so, what would such a test look like? Why would God participate?

    Here's a few examples that I personally find sufficient:

    1. Lets say my daughter dies prematurely. Someone comes and prays for her. She lives again.

    2. I pray and ask God to reveal Himself to me. After praying, I find that I have a perception of His existence which was not previously there.

    How 'bout you?
    Perhaps you should start a new thread or add it to the God thread. This is specifically about origins - evolution, ID and creationism.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  6. #6
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiny Norman
    There's a considerable number, myself included, who believe that defending basic tenets of Christian faith is a very noble task. But perhaps you'd best leave the assessment of the value of Jono's service to Christ to the only Person whose opinion counts ...
    I think Jono is in fact weakening christianity by setting it up as opposed to science. There is no reason one cannot be a christian and a scientist.

    For example see The American Scientific Affiliation. I don't share their faith but they show how for many christian scientists, the basic tenets of the bible is not in conflict with scientific fact. I suggest you have a look around. None of their papers were of much interest to me as they were written for a christian audience.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Producing the body of Christ would have done it. But neither the Romans nor the Jewish leaders could do so. Because it was no longer dead!
    But there is no body that could be produced that could ever remotely convince you since it would be at odds with your holy book and therefore your mind would be closed to the evidence.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    But there is no body that could be produced that could ever remotely convince you since it would be at odds with your holy book and therefore your mind would be closed to the evidence.
    The point is that Christianity would have been nipped in the bud by producing Christ's dead body. But your mind is closed to the evidence that He rose from the dead.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  9. #9
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    The point is that Christianity would have been nipped in the bud by producing Christ's dead body. But your mind is closed to the evidence that He rose from the dead.
    Do you have any evidence that anyone put any effort into trying to find it?
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Do you have any evidence that anyone put any effort into trying to find it?
    The intense preceived need to quash this dangerous new religion, a threat to both the exclusive claims of Caesar and the Jewish religious leaders. The fact of the empty tomb was shown early on when stories were made up about the disciples stealing the body (after rolling back a stone weighing tons, overcoming the guards) then proclaiming with force that the Messiah had risen.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  11. #11
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    The point is that Christianity would have been nipped in the bud by producing Christ's dead body.
    No, the point is that there is no evidence that could ever be produced that could convince you, because you simply explain it away if it is at odds with your story book.

    But your mind is closed to the evidence that He rose from the dead.
    How would you know?
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  12. #12
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    No, the point is that there is no evidence that could ever be produced that could convince you, because you simply explain it away if it is at odds with your story book.
    Why don't you produce this alleged evidence? Fact remains, if the body of Christ had been produced, there would have been no Christianity or New Testament.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    How would you know?
    If it looks like a dogmatic materialist, sounds like a dogmatic materialist, talks like a dogmatic materialist, then it probably is a dogmatic materialist
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Why don't you produce this alleged evidence?
    Are you listening? It is impossible to do enough to convince you because your eyes are closed.

    Fact remains, if the body of Christ had been produced, there would have been no Christianity or New Testament.
    If I gave you a 2000 year old corpse, there is no test that anyone could do on it to convince you it was that of Jesus.


    If it looks like a dogmatic materialist, sounds like a dogmatic materialist, talks like a dogmatic materialist, then it probably is a dogmatic materialist
    Guess again.
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Are you listening? It is impossible to do enough to convince you because your eyes are closed.
    Are you listening? It is impossible to do enough to convince you that Jesus really did rise from the dead because your eyes are closed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    If I gave you a 2000 year old corpse, there is no test that anyone could do on it to convince you it was that of Jesus.
    What test would convince you or anyone else that it was Jesus, for that matter?
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  15. #15
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    The intense preceived need to quash this dangerous new religion, a threat to both the exclusive claims of Caesar and the Jewish religious leaders. The fact of the empty tomb was shown early on when stories were made up about the disciples stealing the body (after rolling back a stone weighing tons, overcoming the guards) then proclaiming with force that the Messiah had risen.
    So that would be... none.

    Good try, Jono... not.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

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