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  1. #1
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    Tsunami hits NSWCA members

    A tsunami hit the members of the NSWCA at 2.30pm on 26th November 2006 with full force. The tsunami washed away $11,248 from NSWCA accumulated funds. Five minutes later a motion that the report be accepted without question was passed. In my 40 years of NSWCA membership (more than half of which I served on council)I have seen the good waves, the stormy waves(where we lose maybe a thousand dollars ) but this tsunami is 10 times more devastating than any year since the first NSW Championship in 1901.

    How did it happen? Could it have been prevented? Throughout its existence in the 20th century the NSWCA has provided its members with a Sydney CBD playing venue for its tournaments, a regular magazine to its members (1983-1997 saw the highest quality A4 magazine posted six times a year to each member) and an annual fee to the Australian Chess Federation of 3-4 thousand dollars. All of these expenses no longer exist - no playing venue, no magazine to members, nothing to pay ACF.
    The NSWCA recorded a profit of $4057 in the year ending 31st July 2005. The income is from membership fees and interest with few overheads. I would consider the $4057 profit to be in accordance with expectations.

    A loss of $11,248 in the year ending 31st July 2006 is a whopping $15305 difference from the previous year. Note the income from membership and interest is about $10,000 so a loss of $11,248 from our accumulated funds means a total expenditure for the year of about $21,248. note - this figure is not in the verbal presidents report. I suggest the AGM of Nov 2007 appoints a commission of enquiry - perhaps from its life members not on council - to investigate why there is a massive difference of $15305 in one year. The commission to be given full powers to check all NSW Council minutes etc and to report back to the next AGM on how it happened and recommendations to prevent a tsunami happening again.

    I am not in any way suggesting that any member of council has acted improperly and in my opinion the integrity of members of council is not a problem. It is however in my opinion of the utmost importance that the members support an enquiry. The Tsunami was caused by many bad decisions.

    The commissions work is made much easier due to the NSWCA being very fortunate to have Norm Greenwood as its Treasurer for so many years.

    There have been times many years ago that the NSWCA records were in a very poor state. A thorough examination by a commission of enquiry could save future administrations a lot of money by not making the same mistakes as the current regime.

    Councillor Richard Gastineau-Hills works tirelessly seven days a week promoting junior chess.

    The council is fortunate to have Brett and Laura and more younger councillors are needed with fresh new ideas. I am pleased to see a few new young arbiters (NSW Champs etc). The NSWCA is in need of councillor/arbiter training courses perhaps by IA Jason Lyons who has himself been taught properly. BTW Lyons was the only IA to get the pairings correct in the last round of the last Australian championship but was incorrectly over-ruled by a gaggle of 3 IA's.

    I have become increasingly concerned in recent times of the policy of the secrecy that the NSWCA council has adopted under the regime of President Bill Gletsos. I know that Brian Jones has often expressed the view that the NSWCA should not be a secret society and I share the same view. It is of course the policy of the NSW Bridge Association and most organisations to advise their members(we do have rights)that minutes of their monthly council meetings appear on their web site. The Gletsos regime has confirmed in writing that all the minutes of the monthly NSWCA Council meetings are confidential and will remain confidential only to be seen by members of the council. Even at the AGM there is no report from the secretary - not one sentence. What are in these secret minutes that are so secret that no member must ever read or discuss them. Furthermore the regime has confirmed that no member has any right to be advised of the financial situation of the NSWCA before the AGM on 24th November 2007. It is in my opinion un-Australian that the Gletsos regime has made laws of their own - not made at any AGM and we live in fear of our financial situation.

    The last AGM gives a figure of 385 members. The policies of the NSWCA are determined by the members. The Gletsos regime appears to have taken away the democratic rights of its members although in my opinion they have no authority to do so. The NSWCA financial year ended on 31st July 2007. The Gletsos regime has a full record of its finances in the period 1st August 2006 to 31st July 2007 listed month by month in the NSWCA secret minutes. I and all members have no rights as far as the Gletsos regime is concerned to know anything before the AGM. The members have a right to be worried. Will we be hit by a much more powerful tsunami wiping out thousands more dollars(the money belongs to the members) from our accumulated funds, will we run at a profit?
    All we do know is that the office bearers elected by our members to look after our interests do know but they refuse to tell us. Council minutes used to be sent to all clubs and club delegates meetings were held regularly.

    Every member has a right to stand for any position at the AGM. It is in my view unconstitutional for Gletsos to continue in his dual role of ACF Deputy President(second in command) of ACF and have the role of NSWCA President(Commander in Chief) at the same time. My regular customer Tim Fischer resigned from State Politics to become Deputy Prime Minister of Australia. Last week a leading Cabinet Minister in the Hawke Government in my shop did not have a role in State matters at the same time. Numerous ACF Presidents, Deputy Presidents, State Chess Association Presidents have held office but all have never had dual roles. It is a simple conflict of interest which Gletsos has used to his advantage. In a recent case the Gletsos regime ruled an important matter was the responsibility of ACF and two days later the ACF ruled it was an NSWCA matter. Gletsos in my shop a few days later was very amused. I call it a misuse of power.

    Other conflicts of interest arise. The Glicko rating system is 100 % rejected by USCF Policy Board every time Glicksman (the USCF rating officer and it's inventor)tries to introduce it. The system is rejected by every country worldwide due to its very high volatility. In Australia Gletsos, ACF Deputy President insists on its usage as does ACF Ratings officer Gletsos as does NSWCA President Gletsos. NSWCA Ratings Officer supports Gletsos 100% and remains an important decision maker on the NSWCA Council although not attending a single NSWCA monthly Council Meeting for the last three years. Any councillor not attending 3 meetings and not a Gletsos supporter is out !

    I counted 10 players in my shop last Thursday evening who want to play again but will not do so under Glicko.
    Not only is the system very bad for many reasons - for those who understand it - no disrespect here but most councillors do not understand the system.

    The other major problem with ratings is also serious. Gletsos(ACF) bills Gletsos(NSW)one rating fee. No of games rated for NSW times the game fee. ACF very happy. All money in ACF bank account. NSW do all the work for rating. Member or non-member Gletsos ACF no care - money in ACF Bank. NSW Big problem. All money gone to ACF. NSW have to find every club, every tournament, every game and send bill. If NSW send out 500 bills and NSW gets 500 cheques then NSW breaks even. NSWCA does all work for non-members. NSWCA very kind to non members. If 400 bills paid ok NSW loses money for other 100 bills. OK no problem - my system under the Gletsos regime. Needless to say the rating system is costing NSWCA money due to the poor system. When a club submits results it should send a cheque at the same time otherwise games not rated. How much is being lost by this poor system ? To avoid conflict of interest the NSWCA through its ratings officer should be lobbying other states for a percentage of the ratings fee. ACF receives 100 %. NSW should review this.

    One member of NSWCA was accused of using bad language on an obscure bulletin board a few years ago. In my opinion the NSWCA has no jurisdiction in this matter. It was not a NSWCA event or club etc. Similarly if two NSWCA members fight in Hyde Park it is nothing to do with NSWCA. The member was banned by the NSWCA and his ban finished 11 months ago. Any NSWCA banned member has been permitted to rejoin after the banned period without conditions except one. I suggest a motion be moved at the AGM by any member to allow the banned player to rejoin with no conditions. This vendetta must stop.

    The problem is with Gletsos in every multiple role state and national there is no democracy.
    The NSWCA selects arbiters for its tournaments. If a player has a dispute with an arbiter he/she has the right to appeal to the NSWCA independent appeals committee. No democracy here either - all five members of the appeals committee including Gletsos are on the council.

    The members of the NSWCA must first understand the problems then I will show how they are rectified. We can all see that the NSW State Championship is in crisis after 106 years. The shortest event, fewest entries, weakest entry,8 players in a very weak title event and 39% of all games forfeited, no opening ceremony, no prize giving, no drawing of lots, incorrect FIDE round robin pairings every round, substantially reduced prizes posted weeks after the event, and no games played at all in the last round due to forfeits - need I go on.

    Take a look at the last AGM minutes - less members, less in grade matches, less in tournaments each losing money etc etc.

    In January 2007 I donated 25 chess clocks to the national championships. My similar donation for January 2008 under the Gletsos regime is cancelled. I will explain why.
    I increased my discount in 2007 to the NSWCA for the performance prizes in the grade matches. My quotation was the lowest.
    I explained in great detail the cause of my complaint to every member of the NSWCA Council before their October Council meeting. I further requested that I wanted the matter listed as an agenda item at the November 2007 AGM in accordance with the NSWCA Constitution and gave 30 days advance notice to every member of council(the constitution requires 28 days notice). Firstly my rights under the constitution(a right of any member)has been denied bringing into question the validity of the AGM. The regime has given me permission to attend the AGM. I do not need the permission of the Gletsos regime to attend the AGM. It is the automatic right of each and every member. I understand selected members have been issued with NSWCA membership cards to attend the AGM. I advise all members you do not need a membership card to attend the AGM. I have been a member for forty consecutive years but have received no membership card.
    The validity of the AGM is in any case under question as the AGM notice gives the incorrect date of the AGM as being 24th November 2006.

    In order to clarify my situation I use the following example.(note the percentage discounts are for example only)

    Shop Z offers the NSWCA 5% discount on its $50 vouchers every year. The NSWCA member spends the voucher at shop Z and the NSWCA pays shop Z $50 less 5% = $ 47-50c

    Shop A offers the NSWCA a much higher discount of 80% on its $50 vouchers. The NSWCA member spends the voucher at shop A and the NSWCA pays shop A $50 less 80% = $ 10-00

    Shop A realises that for a number of years the NSWCA has been paying Shop A and shop Z for these vouchers and in 2007 Shop A increases its discount to give the NSWCA an even better deal increasing its discount to say 90% = $5-00. It does not work.
    The NSWCA still pays shop Z the $47-50c for every $50 voucher but the NSWCA pays me $10 for the same $50 voucher and only $5 when I increase the discount.
    I was tricked by the Gletsos regime.

    To summarise what the NSWCA is doing.
    NSWCA allows its $50 vouchers to be spent at either shop A or shop Z.
    Each and every year the NSWCA pays shop Z more money for the same voucher than it pays shop A.
    When shop A increases its discount (to get the business)the NSWCA still pays shop Z the same amount and shop A even less in 2007 than it did in 2006 for the same voucher. Shop A is punished by the NSWCA every time it increases its discount to the NSWCA. Even the much hated Mugabe regime only punishes shops with higher prices. He does not punish shops which offer lower prices.

    The Gletsos regime does not allow my rights under the constitution, is in breach of the Fair Trading Act, The Trade Practices Act, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (Prof Fels)regulations, the Retail Traders and Shopkeepers Association of NSW Association guidelines etc.

    The NSWCA decides a member can use their $50 voucher at shop A or shop Z.

    I ask every member a simple question (no legal training required) –

    Should the NSWCA (a) pay shop A and shop Z the same amount. (NSWCA says NO) or(b) pay shop A a much lesser amount as he offers a bigger discount (NSWCA says yes) and c) every time shop A offers a bigger discount he will be punished (NSWCA says yes)

    “You can't be serious” - (Quote)John McEnroe.
    In a bizarre response the NSWCA says it has checked its records and found over the years it has purchased more from me than others. The learned Wiseman Fred Flatow suggested to me 34 years ago that as I was selling chess goods at substantially reduced prices I should call my business Chess Discount Sales. Fred's wisdom has stood the test of time. The reason the NSWCA has purchased more from me over the years is due to lower prices. Now under the Gletsos regime the NSWCA insists on punishing me for offering lower prices to the NSWCA. The lower my quotes the more the regime wants to punish me.
    What happened to common sense under the Fair Dinkum Act.

    It was clear to myself and IA Jason Lyons nearly three years ago that the NSWCA needed important fundamental changes.
    In 1975 the NSWCA had 95 teams(5 players per team) plus reserves, all NSWCA members in the grade matches and a total of about 750 plus full financial members. Entries to NSW Championships in the CBD varied over many years from 120-188 players. My chess centre opened near Town Hall (80 players),open 12 hrs a day 7 days a week in 1979 - membership over 300 in the first 9 months. All NSWCA events at chess centre. Treasurer Dr Vasil Tulevski had an easy job just counting all the money.

    In 2007 Chess is far more popular in NSW than it was 30 years ago but the NSWCA has lost half its members. I import container load after container load of chess sets, with annual sales of chess goods throughout NSW running into millions of dollars each year. Junior chess is fantastic with over eight thousand NSW juniors competing in NSW Inter-schools.

    The problem is the NSWCA due to its current policies has lost control of chess in NSW. Before nearly all competitive chess players were members of the NSWCA. This is no longer the case.

    Membership NSWCA – for the first time in 42 years the NSWCA President insisted for the 2006 Olympiad that NSW players do not have to be NSWCA Members. This clearly broke FIDE regulations. Membership was required in the previous 40 years and FIDE requires membership for every FIDE rated player.

    The NSWCA organises the NSWCA Country Championship – no membership required to play – only one person, the winner is required to be a member.

    The NSWCA organises the NSWCA teams challenge competitions but no membership is required to play.

    All non members use NSWCA equipment, all games are rated by NSWCA. No rating fee for non members required, ratings processed, all NSWCA services free for non members.

    The Sydney International Open is sent to FIDE but no membership required – again breaking FIDE regulations – the same for FIDE North Sydney, St. George etc.

    Membership is required for Doeberl Cup but NSWCA never checks losing dozens of membership. Once again NSWCA rates thousands of games for free for non members. Absolutely crazy.

    We must double our membership immediately with compulsory membership of $10 for non-members starting 1st January 2008.

    After a number of discussions between myself, Lyons and Gletsos we reached firm agreement on many matters. Firstly Gletsos agreed not to run again as NSW President(he reneged) as he had now become ACF Deputy President. Lyons, with his management skills, would run for President 2 years ago.

    Claims made that chess is not recognised by government and funding unavailable is not true. Lyons on becoming Australian Olympiad Women’s Captain spoke to a senior Government official and received a cheque for $7,000 a few days later. He appeared on television chat shows and radio programs over the next few weeks raising another $10,000 dollars. Lyons played a managerial role in the organisation of the Asean Games and with the Beijing Olympics he will again be very busy. The NSWCA needs managerial skills like Lyons but as he said from day 1 he wants to help NSWCA but not waste his time arguing with Gletsos.

    The NSWCA Membership list has been locked in the closet for a few decades. It should in my opinion be brought out of the 19th century closet onto the website. Every player in every event resident in NSW should be required to be a member of the NSWCA commencing Jan 1st 2008. This should in my view be passed at the AGM. The compulsory membership fee for non-members to be a very low $10 in the first year. Every organiser can check the website to check the membership or telephone the incoming 2008 registrar. Only events with all players members to be rated.

    I was chief arbiter of the Doeberl Cup in Canberra in 20 different years. Membership is a requirement on the entry form. Every year - 20 times - I took the NSWCA membership list to Canberra and found about 15 players each year ticked the NSWCA box but were in fact not members. In those 20 times alone I collected 300 membership fees. Each year now I am not at the cup and I ask the NSWCA to pick up the 15 or 20 members but it never happens. 20 members is $500 income each year which NSWCA does not bother to collect. Membership is a requirement of entry but NSWCA under the current regime no longer checks. The 2008 registrar should ensure it is checked. There are now in NSW quite a large number of tournaments that are FIDE rated. It is a FIDE rule that every player in a FIDE rated event must be a member of the national Federation (NSWCA for NSW players). NSWCA has been in breach of FIDE Rules for some time. FIDE charges the ACF for its players on every rating list - they must all be members -no free-loaders. In 20 Doeberl Cups I never found a single player who refused to join. If everyone in every event is a member no one will complain and I estimate membership will at least double in the first year. After that the higher fee applies per member. The NSWCA at present rates thousands of games of non-members - the NSWCA provides this free service for non-members. The NSWCA gives non-members ratings. There is no difference between members and non-members. If the NSWCA says to all players in all clubs that we will rate everything exactly the same whether you are a member or not why would they join? As the number of players in official NSWCA events continues to decrease the situation worsens each and every year. The NSWCA is in crises as it encourages non-membership by giving non-members full services - absurd. All Grand Prix events in NSW, all clubs, etc $10 membership is very easy to collect - and I guarantee no-one will complain. If a few do they cannot play as membership is compulsory.

    Each year the Gletsos inner-circle tells the members you cannot get players to join - membership with a low compulsory membership is however essential in my opinion. Why do we rate hundreds of players for free - crazy. We must stop breaking FIDE Rules - why do members encourage non-membership. As we substantially increase the NSWCA Membership all NSWCA tournaments and grade matches become more successful. Grade matches would be far more sensible if there was one not two competitions. One big event, all members means less travelling.

    If our NSWCA Office bearers reject compulsory cheap membership their problems will get worse and worse. The NSWCA needs strong and fair leadership, openness, no secret society. If the NSWCA just copies the calendar and gives free ratings to non-members no progress will occur.

    On a positive note the purchase of the new Chess Centre of NSW in the Sydney CBD announced in 1999 remains on schedule for its opening in the year 2025. This will give me 8 years planning after I retire before the centre opens. Sadly in the meantime my numerous offers to open a CBD Chess Centre by paying all setting up costs and 50% of the rent have been rejected by NSWCA and NSWJCL. A centre is clearly even more financially viable now than when I sold my two storey house to open a chess centre in 1979.

    Only the Gletsos regime knows if the second Tsunami or super Tsunami will hit next week but the members will not be told. All members should attend the AGM - it is the members money - our money that gets washed away for ever in a Tsunami. When you attend the AGM I ask all members to think for themselves not just vote with your mates. I will bring no-one to the meeting - and I will not renege - my word is my bond. Members it is up to you. I have always supported the view that non-members be allowed to attend the AGM with no voting rights of course - our members should have no secrets. Of course this is up to the AGM to decide.

    Peter Parr OAM
    ACF Honorary Life Member
    NSWCA Honorary Life Member

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Hi Peter. Thanks for the post. As it was quite lengthy, I couldn't digest it in one shot (for various reasons). I will take an opportunity to respond with an edit of this post; hopefully later tonight.

    The only reason for this post is that it has been some 7 hours hours since you posted your original, and despite 170 odd views there has been no reply to date.

    EDIT: Reply added at post #8.
    Last edited by Basil; 13-11-2007 at 02:32 AM.
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  3. #3
    CC FIDE Master Phil Bourke's Avatar
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    First observation/s

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    Hi Peter. Thanks for the post. As it was quite lengthy, I couldn't digest it in one shot (for various reasons). I will take an opportunity to respond with an edit of this post; hopefully later tonight.

    The only reason for this post is that it has been some 7 hours hours since you posted your original, and despite 170 odd views there has been no reply to date.
    Just like you, some of us may need more than 7 hrs to cogitate all that Peter has written
    My only questions at this point are: when is the AGM being held?; and why are NSWCA Council minutes not made public? (I think the answer to the first is 24 November 2008, but wish to clarify as it is a long way to drive and be a day early/late!)
    Last edited by Phil Bourke; 12-11-2007 at 07:10 PM. Reason: clarity
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    problems in NSW

    Oh dear what can be done.

    Well the first thing is that you have brought the issues out into the open. This is a big step.

    What next. First I suggest that you inform The Australian Chess Federation of your concerns. There are some actions that they may give serious thought to carrying out. I will not pre-emptively suggest any actions that they might take.

    Secondly have you studied the constitution of the New South Wales Association. Are they registered with the appropriate Government authorities. If so you should check what rights attendees have to ask questions at the AGM and whether these can be stopped.

    Have you considered running a slate of candidates for the Association? Another thing to do if you do not get satisfaction at the AGM is to call a subsequent Special General Meeting to sort things out.

    I have been involved in Chess Administration in New Zealand and Australia since I was fourteen years old and the problems seem to be perennial.

  5. #5
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidflude
    I have been involved in Chess Administration in New Zealand and Australia since I was fourteen years old and the problems seem to be perennial.
    David, why do you think these problems are perennial ?
    ie.What do you consider to be the fundamental problems?

  6. #6
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Perhaps Bill Gletsos here, could shed some light on the lost funds.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    Perhaps Bill Gletsos here, could shed some light on the lost funds.
    He doesn't have to - since the AGM minutes are on the NSWCA website, mainly a bad run with tournaments I take it

    [edit] oh - and other stuff (which seemed OK to me at the time) that were explained to those who went to last year's AGM
    Last edited by themovingman; 13-11-2007 at 11:18 AM.

  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Peter, I believe you have raised some great points worthy of further discussion. As an observer, I thank you for you the effort and note your passion (still). I cannot agree with your methodology or conclusions/ implications in other instances. I have read your words carefully twice now and it is clear to me that much of your piece is neither balanced nor objective.

    A Tsunami
    The NSWCA recorded a loss in the 2005/06 year of $11,000. Of course, let the members of the NSWCA ask at the AGM. If they don't ask (and I assume they didn't last year), they shouldn't be outraged that it wasn't spelled out for them. However, the reasons for the loss may well have been in the Treasurer's Report - the summary and or the trading figures (I have read nothing from you to dispel this), and it is obligation of the Treasurer (of whom you have spoken in glowing terms and is indeed a well respected member of the Australian chess community) to convey this information. If you do insist that the loss was so substantial that one must hear from the President on such matters, then it is entirely disingenuous not to hold the Treasurer by a similar or higher standard. It was at this early juncture that I sensed bias in your piece.

    I for one would be wanting to see the P&L for the year (and I'm sure you have) and it would be quite evident as to how the loss(es) were accumulated. With that information to hand, I now ask why all the rhetorical questions (which you asked) when the answers would be self-evident. By all means attack or question the incumbents, but only from a genuine and informed platform. I appreciate you may seek to argue that being informed is not an option under the present council, but I would suggest that that is being too cute by half. Please tell me that you have been denied an opportunity to sight the P&L for the 2005/06 year and that the Treasurer has declined to answer you subsequent queries.

    Commission Of Enquiry
    Ridiculous. Do I have to fly down and get a member proxy to ask 10 or 15 considered (and well-mannered) questions of the Council. The answers will be right there from a number of councilors. You have sung all of their praises. They are either incompetent or 'in on it' if they can't tell you the reason for the loss. Again I find your singular attack on Bill disingenuous.

    Propriety
    I noted that you have clarified that there is no suggestion of lack of propriety.

    Secret Minutes
    I too am confused by this. I believe the question has been asked here and not answered on a number of times. I support your quest for a genuine answer to this question.

    Lack of Secretary's Report
    Odd in a comparatively small way. Are you resting this at Bill's feet? Are you resting this at the Secretary's feet? Is it a bob each way because you don't care for either? And again, why gloss over the Treasurer's lack of explanation? I see lack of consistency in your 'pursuit of evil'.

    Release of information prior to the 2007 AGM
    If it is correct that that the members are not permitted to view the financials (or quarterlies) prior to the AGM, then I agree with your disgruntlement. I too would be ardently seeking to change that procedure. Is this an edict of the president or the Treasurer? I think it is incumbent on you (who is clearly at odds with the president) not to slip and slide between innuendo and fact depending on when it suits.

    However, and again, your subsequent rhetoric on this issue of the unknown future and the spectre of impending doom is more akin to Sweeney than a man of your standing IMO.

    Gletsos Dual Role
    On your assertion that it is unconstitutional for Bill Gletsos to hold a dual role (ACF and NSWCA), I find you have entirely failed to make the case, in fact I'm not even sure you bothered to attempt it.

    Glicko
    The issue of Glicko is an ACF matter. Bill's (National Ratings Officer) rationale for adoption is quite clear regardless of whether you agree or disagree. I suggest you take that up with the ACF. If you find you meet an obstacle of NSW veto, then you have me as your number one ally (as recently conveyed to you). Nevertheless the issue has nothing whatsoever to do with an attack on Bill Gletsos in his role at the NSWCA.

    10 players who refuse to play in the national system but for Glicko.
    I'd very much like to hear from them or see a signed declaration to that effect. On sighting the document, I'd treat their claim with respect and consideration, but I'd spare a moment to ponder their churlishness.

    Enforcement of Membership
    I haven't checked NSW constitution and don't intend to study the structure of membership. Suffice to say that I personally agree that all players in any state who wish to be rated, should be compulsory members. I further agree that not enforcing this is remiss. I do question (again) why this is laid at the president's feet? Are the other councilors 'in on it' or incompetent? There are of course other reasons which may be at play which I don't wish to suggest as it is you who has made the imputation, and I feel the onus is on you to clarify.

    Sweeney
    Sweeney is a man who has conducted himself so poorly over a lengthy period of time that the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn is that his conduct is contrary to the interests of chess. His conduct was not 'an incident', it was a campaign. The condition that he agree to desist (and apologise?) is not at all unreasonable. Argue the contrary all you care, but you will meet equal resistance to match your calls every day of the week from this boy. You'd do your case no end of good by ceasing to champion that clown IMO.

    The issue of democracy
    All that you have said regarding democracy is none of Bill's doing. I support you in your (and Bill's and anyone else's) quest to serve chess, but I cannot condone any suggestion thinly, thickly or shabbily veiled as an attack on his abuse of democracy.

    The issue of attendance at the AGM
    The issuing of cards (as you tell it) certainly seems odd.

    The issue of financial vouchers
    I do not wish to comment on that matter in this place at this time. I hope for all concerned that you are (and remain) absolutely certain of your facts when your review your post and subsequent claims to this effect.

    “You can't be serious” - (Quote)John McEnroe.
    Hey! You pinched that from me!

    Doubling of membership fees
    While I am not privy to the salient information, I would support this concept 100% sight-unseen. No contest.

    The NSWCA Membership list has been locked in the closet for a few decades.
    I agree it should be published.

    Peter, there are many issues with which you have my entire support and sympathies. There is nothing unusual in that in such cases of politics, administrative and financial matters. It would be most odd that I entirely agree or disagree with either you, Bill or anyone else for that matter.

    I believe the attempt at demonising Bill is misplaced and ill-considered. And this from a man who has experienced the NSW veto! Nonetheless, Bill is doing his job and he is entitled to do so - you are entitled to try and change things - good luck to you both.
    Last edited by Basil; 13-11-2007 at 01:32 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Bourke
    Just like you, some of us may need more than 7 hrs to cogitate all that Peter has written
    My only questions at this point are: when is the AGM being held?; and why are NSWCA Council minutes not made public? (I think the answer to the first is 24 November 2008, but wish to clarify as it is a long way to drive and be a day early/late!)
    http://nswca.org.au/ - under latest information

    NSWCA Chess Association Inc.
    Annual General Meeting

    Saturday November 24th 2007 at 2.30pm


    Notice is hereby given that the Annual General Meeting of the New South Wales Chess Association Inc will be held on Saturday 24th November 2007 at 2.30pm at Rooty Hill RSL Club, 55 Sherbrooke Street, Rooty Hill.

    Agenda

    1. Welcome and apologies.
    2. Confirmation of the minutes of AGM held 26th November 2006.
    3. Presidents’ Report.
    4. Treasurers’ report and consideration of the statement of income and expenditure.
    5. Other office bearer reports
    6. Determination of Annual membership and Club Affiliation fees for 2008.
    7. Election of office bearers for the forthcoming year:
    President * Vice President *
    Treasurer * Secretary *
    Ratings Officer Registrar
    Webmaster Tournament Officer
    Publicity Officer Communications Officer
    Club Liaison Officer Country Representative
    Member without portfolio

    * Executive Positions

    8. Appointment of Auditor
    9. Appointment of Appeals Committee
    10. Other Business
    Last edited by themovingman; 13-11-2007 at 03:52 PM.

  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Parr
    The regime has given me permission to attend the AGM. I do not need the permission of the Gletsos regime to attend the AGM. It is the automatic right of each and every member.
    I understand this is a misrepresentation of the true turn of events. In short, you asked to have an item added in advance to the upcoming AGM's agenda (as you believed the item required advance notification). You received a reply saying that no advance notification was required and that you were welcome to attend the AGM and present your petition from the floor. You have changed the whole meaning of this turn of events to suggest that you have been invited to a meeting that (clearly) you are entitled to attend anyway. Pfft. Muckraking. Tell me I'm wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Parr
    I understand selected members have been issued with NSWCA membership cards to attend the AGM. I advise all members you do not need a membership card to attend the AGM. I have been a member for forty consecutive years but have received no membership card.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    The issue of attendance at the AGM
    The issuing of cards (as you tell it) certainly seems odd.
    Peter, it is now my belief that you have received misinformation and have perpetuated it here.
    1. The reason you have not received a membership card (recently) is because you are a life member.
    2. The suggestion/ implication that one needs a card to attend the AGM is bogus mongering. You did say in your quote "as I understand it". Have you had some incompetent boob dribbling sweet nothings into your ear? Cards are issued as a matter of course to all members and nothing has been suggested anywhere or provided to members suggesting otherwise. Tell me I'm wrong.

    Secret Minutes: Update
    As the minutes were also secret under your team, I think it manifestly rank that you include it as part of a broadside against the present team.
    Last edited by Basil; 13-11-2007 at 02:22 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  11. #11
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Gunner, as a QLD person, I am curious to know whether you have any connection with this NSW AGM business? Why not just leave it up to them to sort out their issues/problems without interference from interstate observers?
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  12. #12
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    I've been asked privately why I've taken Gunner to task for getting involved. Why not criticise others from VIC who were first to post as interstaters? I'm not trying to single out Gunner for criticism. I am simply asking him a question. I could have asked this question of others (either 'here' or 'there'), but I didn't, partly because I think that I'll get a carefully constructed and to-the-point reply from Gunner.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  13. #13
    CC International Master Brian_Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiny Norman
    Gunner, as a QLD person, I am curious to know whether you have any connection with this NSW AGM business? Why not just leave it up to them to sort out their issues/problems without interference from interstate observers?
    Houston, we have a problem.

    But seriously, chess administration in NSW (and Australia) is a subject for discussion by everybody. All input should be heard.

    For those that want to read last years NSWCA AGM minutes, here they are.

    http://www.nswca.org.au/AGM07.htm

  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster
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    Both Peter's and Howard's postings contain a lot of intersting points. Rather than focusing on all of them (and making my posting the longest ever).

    I would like to focus on what i regard the main issue out of all the issues/problems discussed. The financial "shortfall".

    I wonder if the reasons behind the shortfall were addressed? I also wonder what kind of mismanagement is required to "achieve" such a disasterous result? Has any administrator/administrators taken responsibility for it?

    And the main question is...what is going to be done about it so such financial losses do not occur again in future?
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  15. #15
    Account Permanently Banned firegoat7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiny Norman
    Gunner, as a QLD person, I am curious to know whether you have any connection with this NSW AGM business? Why not just leave it up to them to sort out their issues/problems without interference from interstate observers?
    LoL. Actually what I find amazing is Howard's naivety. He talks down to Peter as if somehow Peter Parr knew little about the workings of the NSWCA. The presumption implicit in his writing is a defence of the actions of Gletsos. For goodness sake Howard get a clue!!

    Personally, I think most of what Peter says is true, and are the members of NSW going to wait until their state association is broke before they do anything about the root problem?

    Just on a personal note, I hope Gletsos is removed from a rating capacity nationally. Glicko- what a joke of a rating system. Not utilised in any country except Australia. Always having to be artificially tinkered with to be in line with Fide. I know Why don't you use the same rating system as Fide to keep the system in line? OMG that would make sense!

    cheers FG7

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