Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Subtropical Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    11,245

    More Clocks - Does Black Decide The Side?

    Question:
    Does the player with the black pieces get to elect which side of the board the clock is placed?

    Answer:
    Yes.

    --------------------------------------

    Other answer : No

    Andrew Robinson, president of The Gap Chess Club, was arbiter of The Flood Cup earlier this year and was confronted with this very issue when the player of the black pieces (late to the game) upon arrival at the board noticed that the clock was on his less favoured side.

    The (black) player requested the clock be moved.

    Robinson consulted The FIDE Laws of Chess (2005) and he found:

    COMPETITION RULES
    Article 6: The chess clock
    ~
    6.4 Before the start of the game the arbiter decides where the chess clock is placed.


    Finding nothing else to the contrary or that which should be read in conjunction, he ruled that the clock should remain.

    Apparently, the idea that 'the player with the black pieces decides on which side of the board the clock should be located' is mere custom / convention. Opinions?

    The Gap Chess Club's reference to this event is found here
    Last edited by Basil; 03-11-2007 at 03:06 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  2. #2
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    1,977
    What is the question asking? It is a fairly clear rule (and one that I already knew about), so are you asking if we like it or not?

    Also, in response to the thread title "more clocks - which side?", I say yes, at least three per room, on the left side of the room (left of wherever I happen to be, of course).

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Subtropical Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    11,245
    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    What is the question asking?
    I have changed the title of the thread. It was ambiguous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    It is a fairly clear rule (and one that I already knew about), so are you asking if we like it or not?
    Brilliant! What I thought was (an all but) universal misapprehension is met in its first post by someone who wasn't misapprehended. That's just GR8!
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The island
    Posts
    14,214
    I believe Andrew's decision was the correct one. I found the whole scene pretty funny and it couldn't have happened to a nicer fellow!
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

  5. #5
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    1,977
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    Brilliant! What I thought was (an all but) universal misapprehension is met in its first post by someone who wasn't misapprehended. That's just GR8!
    Maybe I should have asked who was making the clock move request.

    The reason I am aware of it is that I have heard enough announcements from the arbiter about this issue, which suggests that it isn't known universally.

  6. #6
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,575
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    Andrew Robinson, president of The Gap Chess Club, was arbiter of The Flood Cup earlier this year and was confronted with this very issue when the player of the black pieces (late to the game) upon arrival at the board noticed that the clock was on his less favoured side.

    The (black) player requested the clock be moved.

    Robinson consulted The FIDE Laws of Chess (2005) and he found:

    COMPETITION RULES
    Article 6: The chess clock
    ~
    6.4 Before the start of the game the arbiter decides where the chess clock is placed.


    Finding nothing else to the contrary or that which should be read in conjunction, he ruled that the clock should remain.

    Apparently, the idea that 'the player with the black pieces decides on which side of the board the clock should be located' is mere custom / convention. Opinions?
    First I would say I don;t think customs should be referred to as "mere" however I am not aware of anything in the rules as to the placing of the clock other than that quoted above. Yes the arbiter decides.

    In some cases this might be important. For example the arbiter might like to be able to monitor game progression from the central aisle of a playing hall and therefore might place the clocks all on the left side of the board on the right hand side, and vice versa. Another consideration might be a venue where some tables are a little crowded and having two clocks adjacent might cause two boards to also be adjacent and distracting for the players on those boards.

    However, if the arbiter hadn't decided which side of the board the clock should be placed then the players need to some to some agreement. The usual convention is to allow Black to choose. However, if the game began with Black absent then White should be free to choose. After all, he need to make a move and start Black's clock.

    Once started there is no compulsion on the arbiter to fiddle the clock just because Black, arriving late, didn't like the side the clock was placed. If he wants to have any input into that process he should at least be present at the start of the game.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Subtropical Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    11,245
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    First I would say I don;t think customs should be referred to as "mere"
    There is 'mere' in the sense that what follows is insignificant.
    There is 'mere' in the sense that what follows is solely limited to.
    I used the term as the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    however I am not aware of anything in the rules as to the placing of the clock other than that quoted above. Yes the arbiter decides.
    Great. Is there anyone at all, anywhere who was under this misapprehension?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    In some cases this might be important. For example the arbiter might like to be able to monitor game progression from the central aisle of a playing hall and therefore might place the clocks all on the left side of the board on the right hand side, and vice versa.
    I have considered this previously, and believed the solution was to switch the orientation of the players!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Another consideration might be a venue where some tables are a little crowded and having two clocks adjacent might cause two boards to also be adjacent and distracting for the players on those boards.
    Ditto.
    Last edited by Basil; 03-11-2007 at 03:51 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  8. #8
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    40,394
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    Apparently, the idea that 'the player with the black pieces decides on which side of the board the clock should be located' is mere custom / convention. Opinions?
    That is correct.

    In many tournaments the boards will be set up a particular way and the arbiter will want to be able to see as many clocks as possible at the same time. This can only be arranged by having the clocks put on the same side. In some cases it would be possible to let Black decide the orientation of the board, but in others (where there were things to put in place on each player's side, for instance) this might be inconvenient.

    This was all the centre of a ripper of an incident between Escribano and Komljenovic in a rapidplay in Melbourne in 2001-2. I know I wrote an account of it somewhere but cannot find it, but the basis of it was, as best I recall, that Escribano started the clock but Komljenovic, upon arriving at the board, decided to switch the clock around to his preferred side, and did so without resetting it so that Escribano actually started with four minutes to five when it should have been the other way around. This was dealt with by the arbiter in some no-nonsense fashion, but Komljenovic ended up winning the game, whereupon Escribano insisted Komljenovic should forfeit for the original misbehaviour. When this suggestion wasn't adopted Escribano withdrew from the tournament and in the bulletin the next day the five games Escribano forfeited were replaced in the crosstable by the words "Stupid People Always With Draw".

  9. #9
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,575
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    This was all the centre of a ripper of an incident between Escribano and Komljenovic in a rapidplay in Melbourne in 2001-2. I know I wrote an account of it somewhere but cannot find it, but the basis of it was, as best I recall, that Escribano started the clock but Komljenovic, upon arriving at the board, decided to switch the clock around to his preferred side, and did so without resetting it so that Escribano actually started with four minutes to five when it should have been the other way around. This was dealt with by the arbiter in some no-nonsense fashion, but Komljenovic ended up winning the game, whereupon Escribano insisted Komljenovic should forfeit for the original misbehaviour. When this suggestion wasn't adopted Escribano withdrew from the tournament and in the bulletin the next day the five games Escribano forfeited were replaced in the crosstable by the words "Stupid People Always With Draw".
    I hadn't heard this story. I take it then that he wasn't an approved withdrawer.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Subtropical Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    11,245
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    When this suggestion wasn't adopted Escribano withdrew from the tournament and in the bulletin the next day the five games Escribano forfeited were replaced in the crosstable by the words "Stupid People Always With Draw".
    Withdrawing from the tournament was wrong.

    Komljenovic who had WRONGLY switched the clocks, AND had not taken into account the time differential behaved reprehensibly. The person responsible for amending the cross-table; likewise.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  11. #11
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    40,394
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I hadn't heard this story. I take it then that he wasn't an approved withdrawer.
    Certainly not.

    Wish I could find my original account of the incident but suspect it was on the fall-over BBs in 2002 and hence not recoverable.

  12. #12
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    3,333
    I, being in that kind of mood, just had a thought a la Reuben.

    Stewart assets that, under Art. 13.7 b, the arbiter could designate the whole world as a place where is is forbidden to use a mobile phone (and he thinks that is a jolly good idea). By parity of reasoning, I suppose that the arbiter could decide, under Art. 6.4, that the clock was to be placed on the floor on in the toilet.

    DJ

    PS Who needs Laws of Chess anyway?
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Clocks behaving strangely.
    By ElevatorEscapee in forum Arbiters' Corner
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 21-03-2007, 07:00 PM
  2. Is it a legal move?
    By Phil Bourke in forum Arbiters' Corner
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: 24-05-2006, 09:56 AM
  3. Wanted Chess clocks
    By nzgrandmaster in forum General Chess Chat
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 26-02-2006, 12:10 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •