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  1. #61
    CC Candidate Master frogmogdog's Avatar
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    hmmm, maybe the exam was too hard?

    anyway, the correct answer is:

    if obeying laws is outlawed, then only outlaws obey laws.

    mr jefferson

    (PS. yup the avatar is outdated, just pretend it's kevin's smile on a cheshire cat.)

  2. #62
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Logic 100

    Quote Originally Posted by frogmogdog
    hmmm, maybe the exam was too hard?

    anyway, the correct answer is:

    if obeying laws is outlawed, then only outlaws obey laws.

    mr jefferson

    (PS. yup the avatar is outdated, just pretend it's kevin's smile on a cheshire cat.)
    LOGIC 100:- Outlaws are significantly more interested in owning a gun than they are in either pacifism or obeying laws !

    Jefferson was not implying a logical sequence in his famous quotation, but rather an observation of the resulting reality.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogmogdog
    hmmm, maybe the exam was too hard?

    anyway, the correct answer is:

    if obeying laws is outlawed, then only outlaws obey laws.

    mr jefferson
    Personally I'd put the blame on those who made such laws. (One obeys the law iff one disobeys the law.)

  4. #64
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition
    By Cal Thomas
    13 December 2007

    I have been waiting for this to happen. For years we have witnessed the carnage when innocents were mowed down at schools, colleges, shopping malls and post offices. The unarmed (disarmed?) were easy targets for crazed gunmen armed with grievances, weapons and ammunition.

    Now someone has shot back, probably saving many lives. All of the gun-control laws that have been passed and are still being contemplated could not have had the affect of one armed, trained and law-abiding citizen on the scene like 42-year-old Jeanne Assam, a volunteer security guard at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs.

    ...

    Killers — ones with mental disorders, or terrorists — look for places with large gatherings to amplify their acts. That’s why in recent years they have selected targets ranging from the World Trade Center, to Columbine High School, to shopping malls and now a megachurch. On the rare occasions when an armed person has been on the scene before police arrive, such acts have been stopped before further damage could be done. When no armed person has been present, by the time the police show up the killing is usually over and the gunman has shot himself.

    The point is that gun laws will not deter criminals with evil intent and police can’t be everywhere they’re needed. But killers can be stopped by law-abiding citizens with guns. As the Supreme Court considers its ruling on whether the strict gun laws in the District of Columbia are constitutional, it might remember Jeanne Assam and her courageous, proper and for now legal response to a lawless act. Though four were killed at the two locations and several others wounded, many more owe their lives to Assam, who should be the new poster woman for those who wish to preserve the right to keep and bear arms.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  5. #65
    CC Candidate Master frogmogdog's Avatar
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    hi jono.

    as a kid i had a picture book bible, but just recall stuff about turning the other cheek.

    come to think of it, my bible also didn't mention Jesus's aspirations to upgrade his donkey to a lamborghini, or his anger at the money lenders for failing to maximise profits.

    is the multiheaded dog edition better for a man of Christ to work off?

    any advice gratefully received, thanks!

  6. #66
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogmogdog
    hi jono.

    as a kid i had a picture book bible, but just recall stuff about turning the other cheek.
    The first thing is that “turn the other cheek” has nothing to do with self-defence. Note that Jesus said ‘if anyone slaps you on the right cheek’ (Mt. 5:39), and the only way a right-handed person could slap your right cheek is backhanded. So this was a form of insult, not a threat to life.

    Second, this command governs two individuals, not those tasked with defending others. E.g. the Bible allows a home owner to use force against a night-time home invader, even lethal (Ex. 22:2). It also allows the government to use lethal force to restrain crime, hence the government “does not bear the sword in vain” (Romans 13:4).

    Jesus also commended a centurion for his great faith (Mt. 8), and the first gentile Christian convert was Cornelius, a centurion in the Italian regiment. There isn’t the slightest hint that they were expected to give up their military profession, which entails the use of lethal force at times.

    Jesus also endorsed the reality of deterrence through strength, where a king facing a much stronger army will sue for peace (Luke 14:31–32). Churchill and Reagan certainly recognized this principle, and the corollary that weakness and appeasment embolden evil regimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by frogmogdog
    come to think of it, my bible also didn't mention Jesus's aspirations to upgrade his donkey to a lamborghini, or his anger at the money lenders for failing to maximise profits.
    It's the LOVE for money that's the "root of all kinds of evil", not money per se.

    Jesus supported the principle of the tithe, which was a flat tax (God prospers you 10 times as must, you pay 10x as much, not 50 times as per “progressive” taxation — an inspiration for President Reagan’s policies).

    Jesus also supported the right of an employer to make individual employment contracts, based on his right to do as he pleased with his own money and the fact that the employees freely entered into them. Interestingly, most got MORE than the prevailing hourly "award wage" (Mt. 20).

    Quote Originally Posted by frogmogdog
    is the multiheaded dog edition better for a man of Christ to work off?

    any advice gratefully received, thanks
    Try a modern translation, and learn about the grammatical and historical context.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 14-12-2007 at 01:50 PM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  7. #67
    CC Candidate Master frogmogdog's Avatar
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    thanks jono, appreciate the reply.

    i disagree with most of the conclusions (of course), but it's interesting to hear work arounds for the possibility that Jesus was an egalitarian with a non-violent streak.

    cheers, and best wishes to you and your family for christmas.

  8. #68
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogmogdog
    thanks jono, appreciate the reply.

    i disagree with most of the conclusions (of course), but it's interesting to hear work arounds for the possibility that Jesus was an egalitarian with a non-violent streak.
    One irony is that some supporting both propositions will argue for the former with Jesus overthrowing the tables of the money-lenders in the temple And a reminder: one can support generosity to the poor without supporting the government forcibly redistributing wealth.

    Quote Originally Posted by frogmogdog
    cheers, and best wishes to you and your family for christmas.
    Thanx, you too.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  9. #69
    CC resident nutcase Trent Parker's Avatar
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    "if guns are outlawed, then only outlaws have guns."
    not true. Law enforcement have guns!

    For me its one or two simple equations

    Gun Crime = Law abiding gun owner + Thief of gun from Law abiding gun Owner.

    Therefore if there are less gun owners and less guns to be thieved then there is less guns and less gun related crime
    GO THE DRAGONS!
    GO Western Sydney Wanderers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski's signature
    God exists. Short and to the point.
    This is the reason I do not wade into religion threads.

  10. #70
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Incremental Tyranny Step 3 Gun Confiscation

    Gun Owners Group Condemns "Treacherous" Passage Of Anti-Second Amendment Legislation
    " Veterans bill" passed by House and Senate without recorded vote

    Steve Watson
    *******s.net
    Friday, Dec 21, 2007







    Gun owners and second amendment rights groups have condemned the passage by Congress yesterday of legislation that re-writes the law in order to regulate gun ownership.

    Alex Jones was joined on air yesterday by Aaron Zelman, Executive Director of the pro second amendment group Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, to discuss the passing by Congress of the "NICS Improvement Act"

    Opponents have dubbed the bill, the "veterans disarmament act" as it will place any veteran who has ever been diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) on the federal gun ban list.

    The bill, HR 2640, passed in the House in June and was later passed out of the Senate Judiciary Committee both times without a recorded vote. Gun owners have been trying to raise awareness and beat down the legislation ever since.

    The bill, sponsored by outspoken anti-second amendment representatives Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) and Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT), also applies to anyone who has been diagnosed with ADHD as a child and to anyone who develops Alzheimer's. Gun owners fear that in time the diagnosis of any kind of mental affliction could end with rights being stripped.

    "This was a combined effort between the NRA and Carolyn McCarthy and Charlie Schumer, to appear to be doing something good, but in reality it brings about a great deal of evil." Aaron Zelman commented on the Alex Jones show.

    (Article continues below)


    "One example that has really concerned me for many months since this bill was introduced, I haven't seen a clear definition of what a mental health problem is, does that mean somebody who was depressed for a week if there was a death in the family? They got a few pills from their doctor or does it mean something much more severe?" Zelman continued.

    The legislation is another case that hinges on the government's incessant creation of psychological profiles for everything that are then used to categorize people and accordingly strip rights.

    Section 102((1)©(iv) in HR 2640 provides for dumping raw medical records into the system which will then, by law, serve as the basis for gun banning.

    The bill radically redefines key legal terms to allow gun ownership rights to be stripped on the findings of a psychiatric diagnosis, where in the past gun rights could only be withdrawn through an adjudication by a judge, magistrate or court with the protections of due process.

    "This really opens a door for the ATF, to come smashing the door down actually in your home because lets say you owned guns prior to someone saying you have a mental health issue, well that means you can't keep the guns you have. So this will give a whole new emphasis to ATF to justify their budget and their thuggery." Zelman stressed during yesterday's interview.

    "This bill is treachery on behalf of the NRA and the usual group of gun haters. it should be a red flag to everybody who is listening to your program that the battle to destroy the second amendment has started. The war on guns is in full force." Zelman continued.

    The legislation also mirrors policy of Bill Clinton's administration over seven years ago when some 83,000 veterans were illegitimately added into the National Criminal Information System (NICS system) -- prohibiting them from purchasing firearms, simply because of afflictions like PTSD.

    Section 101(c)(1)(C) of HR 2640 would rubber-stamp those illegal actions. Over 140,000 law-abiding veterans would be statutorily barred from possessing firearms.

    Furthermore, the legislation passed the Senate and the House on a voice vote, meaning there is no record of who voted for it. The bill will now go to the President's desk

    The veterans disarmament act is tantamount to declaring the fear of an authoritarian government, the cornerstone of the second amendment, a mental illness. Once again we are witnessing another all out attack on the basic founding principles of the American Republic.

    "The supreme court may say yes you have a right to gun ownership but the government has a right to regulate. That regulation could also include taxation. The battle is on and anyone who thinks, well no, we're gonna win the day and things are going to turn out OK, they need to take an anti-Naive pill." Zelman urged yesterday.

    Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership's website has more information and advice on what action can be taken to combat the legislation

    "As we have shown people in our film, innocents betrayed, when governments take guns they are able to demonize a group of people, they are abe to determine whether that group of people will live or die, and they are able to control the entire society because no one can resist effectively." Zelman concluded.

    Listen to the full interview with Aaron Zelman here.

  11. #71
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCN
    not true. Law enforcement have guns!
    But they can't be everywhere. Here, they are too busy raising revenue on the roads. In the Colorado Church, the massacre was prevented by an armed heroine, unlike the disarmed Virginia Tech where the shooter had no resisted.

    Quote Originally Posted by TCN
    For me its one or two simple equations

    Gun Crime = Law abiding gun owner + Thief of gun from Law abiding gun Owner.
    Not if the gun owner can get to his gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by TCN
    Therefore if there are less gun owners and less guns to be thieved then there is less guns and less gun related crime
    But this has not worked out in practice. Crime, both gun-related and not, has often increased when the crims know that their victims will be defenseless. But Israel and Switzerland have lots of legal guns and very little gun crime.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  12. #72
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    IMHO Gun laws should not be so strict.

    AK's are not licenced in SA and yet most crimes are done with them. Where do they get tehm? So liscenced or not, the outlaw will always find a gun if he needs one.

    Besides guns you have other weapons. For example if we get rid of guns then the "knifers" will rule.

    The government might have its own agenda but the guns of law enforcement officers are carried by individuals.

    The cop and the criminal are both part of the same duality. In effect a cop is a man with a criminal in the dark side of his ego peronality and a resquer in the light side of his ego personality. If this cop has a pressing problem he might turn.
    I get paid to test games online. Ask me how.

  13. #73
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehorse66
    Besides guns you have other weapons. For example if we get rid of guns then the "knifers" will rule.
    That may or may not be the case ... but you've got much better chances of outrunning a thug with a knife than outrunning a bullet.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    That may or may not be the case ... but you've got much better chances of outrunning a thug with a knife than outrunning a bullet.
    I can imagine where all this will lead if we systematically remove all weapons. Eventually the stongest fastest biggest people will resort to more and more primitive means to harm the weaker older slower,smaller.

    This guns issue is not really the root of the problem here. To solve this issue we need to dig deeper into the motivations that cause these misdeeds to happen.
    I get paid to test games online. Ask me how.

  15. #75
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehorse66
    This guns issue is not really the root of the problem here. To solve this issue we need to dig deeper into the motivations that cause these misdeeds to happen.
    "Root causes" stuff has not solved crime. Disincentives to commit crime has done much more. Thomas Sowell said:

    Gun control laws are like OSHA for criminals. When criminals have guns and their victims don't, crime becomes a safer occupation. In some countries with strict gun-control laws, burglars enter houses while people are still at home several times as often as that happens in the United States.

    Locking up criminals is another proven way of preventing their preying on the innocent public.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 27-12-2007 at 01:16 AM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

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