View Poll Results: I voted in this poll AND this conjunction is false.

Voters
13. You may not vote on this poll
  • True

    2 15.38%
  • False

    5 38.46%
  • Other

    7 53.85%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 48
  1. #31
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    1,977
    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    I think for the problem to be defined the conjunction (in this particular statement) has to be defined.
    I don't understand this comment.

  2. #32
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    5,531
    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    I don't understand this comment.
    In logic conjunction is a combination of other statements. You have to specify which statements (preferably finite number of them) are combined in the conjunction.
    For private coaching (IM, four times VIC champion) call or SMS 0417519733
    Computer tells you what to play. Good coach explains why.

  3. #33
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    1,977
    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    In logic conjunction is a combination of other statements. You have to specify which statements (preferably finite number of them) are combined in the conjunction.
    The statements are "I voted in this poll" and "this conjunction is false".

  4. #34
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    5,531
    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    The statements are "I voted in this poll" and "this conjunction is false".
    Conjunction of what?
    For private coaching (IM, four times VIC champion) call or SMS 0417519733
    Computer tells you what to play. Good coach explains why.

  5. #35
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    1,977
    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Conjunction of what?
    Of those two statements.

  6. #36
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    1,977
    Call "I voted in this poll" "a", and "this conjunction is false" "b".

    Is (a&b) true or false? By the definition of a conjunction, it is true iff both of its conjuncts are true. Let us for the moment say a is true. Then it comes down to b.
    If b is true, then one of a or b must be false. Hence if b is true b must also be false (because a is true).
    If b is false, both a and b must be true. Hence if b is false it must also be true.

    I think your complaint here is of the "what does "this sentence" refer to" type. If you say it refers to itself, then you have "this sentence this sentence...".
    Last edited by Aaron Guthrie; 02-07-2008 at 03:51 PM.

  7. #37
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    1,977
    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    I think your complaint here is of the "what does "this sentence" refer to" type. If you say it refers to itself, then you have "this sentence this sentence...".
    Things could also be construed thusly,

    "a" = "I voted in this poll"
    "b" = "c is false"
    "c" = (a&b)

    And then you worry, if this is your worry, is that things come out as (a&~(a&~(a&..., or (a&huh?
    Last edited by Aaron Guthrie; 02-07-2008 at 04:21 PM.

  8. #38
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    5,531
    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    Call "I voted in this poll" "a", and "this conjunction is false" "b".

    Is (a&b) true or false? By the definition of a conjunction, it is true iff both of its conjuncts are true. Let us for the moment say a is true. Then it comes down to b.
    If b is true, then one of a or b must be false. Hence if b is true b must also be false (because a is true).
    If b is false, both a and b must be true. Hence if b is false it must also be true.

    I think your complaint here is of the "what does "this sentence" refer to" type. If you say it refers to itself, then you have "this sentence this sentence...".
    That's what I was getting to:
    It is a combination of infinitive number of statements.
    For private coaching (IM, four times VIC champion) call or SMS 0417519733
    Computer tells you what to play. Good coach explains why.

  9. #39
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Atlanta, GA (formerly Brisbane, and before that Wellington, NZ)
    Posts
    19,664
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    I'm not sure why Buridan's Sophisms ch. 8 all about liar paradoxes should be called "informal".
    Speaking of Buridan, his idea of impetus was also a fore-runner of Galileo's principle of inertia, in turn the fore-runner of Newton's First Law of Motion:

    Also, since the Bible does not state that appropriate intelligences move the celestial bodies, it could be said that it does not appear necessary to posit intelligences of this kind, because it would be answered that God, when He created the world, moved each of the celestial orbs as He pleased, and in moving them He impressed in them impetuses which moved them without His having to move them any more except by the method of general influence whereby He concurs as a co-agent in all things which take place; 'for thus on the seventh day He rested for all work …' [Gen. 2:2] And these impetuses which He impressed in the celestial bodies were not decreased nor corrupted afterwards, because there was not inclination of the celestial bodies for movements.



    But because of the resistance which results from the weight of the [waterwheel of the] mill, the impetus would continually diminish until the mill ceased to turn. And perhaps, if the mill should last forever without any diminution or change, and there were no other resistance to corrupt the impetus, the mill would move forever because of its perpetual impetus.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  10. #40
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,437
    I don't see how the proposition "I voted in this poll AND this conjunction is false" can be true ... at the time of choosing how to vote, "I voted in this poll" (being past tense) is obviously false, therefore the proposition fails.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  11. #41
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    1,977
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiny Norman
    I don't see how the proposition "I voted in this poll AND this conjunction is false" can be true ... at the time of choosing how to vote, "I voted in this poll" (being past tense) is obviously false, therefore the proposition fails.
    Your claim is that at least every vote should be "false". (Unless someone votes with a hydra?) However is the claim also that the proposition per se is always false? Perhaps the real claim is that whatever proposition one votes on is always false. (E.g. Spinny may have voted on "Spinny has already voted at such and such a time", and that doesn't change!) I won't, however, be making a new poll to make the tense (or rather, tenselessness) explicit.

  12. #42
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,437
    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    Unless someone votes with a hydra?
    Touche! You might need to define "I" so that it was clear it didn't refer to the bulletin board identity but rather to the 'real person'.

    Let V = "I voted in this poll"
    Let C = "This conjunction" ... which draws in V again.

    So the proposition is that V&C is false. However C=V&C ad infinitum ... but I'm not sure whether to call that "nonsense" or "circular" (or both).

    Anyway, I'm going to vote for Other.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  13. #43
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    1,977
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiny Norman
    Let V = "I voted in this poll"
    Let C = "This conjunction" ... which draws in V again.

    So the proposition is that V&C is false. However C=V&C ad infinitum ... but I'm not sure whether to call that "nonsense" or "circular" (or both).
    Igor had a similar worry. And I spelt the worry out similar to you in post 37. If this is the right analysis, it does seem like the sentence doesn't make any sense.

  14. #44
    CC Grandmaster Adamski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Penrith, NSW
    Posts
    8,717

    Doh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    Igor had a similar worry. And I spelt the worry out similar to you in post 37. If this is the right analysis, it does seem like the sentence doesn't make any sense.
    So this is the 44th post about a sentence that does not make any sense! It must be time for me to do something else!
    God exists. Short and to the point.

    Secretary of, and regularly arbiter at, Rooty Hill RSL Chess Club. See www.rootyhillchessclub.org.

    Psephological insight. "Controversial will only lose you votes. Courageous will lose you the election." Sir Humphrey Appleby on Yes Minister.

    Favorite movie line: Girl friend Cathy to Jack Ryan in "Sum of all Fears". "What kind of emergency does an historian have?".

  15. #45
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,437
    You know, we could start analysing Mangafranga's votes ... he voted for True and False ... ... that would keep us going for another 20-30 posts easily I reckon.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Is the Bible truth?
    By Oepty in forum Religion and Science
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 13-12-2012, 03:16 AM
  2. The truth about Pittman and Lewis
    By pax in forum Non-Chess
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-04-2006, 02:37 PM
  3. Is the Jabberwock truth?
    By PHAT in forum Non-Chess
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 02-09-2004, 05:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •