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  1. #1
    CC Rookie NeilH's Avatar
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    Help with FIDE Swiss pairing

    Over the last couple of months I have been developing a program to perform swiss pairing according to the FIDE Swiss pairing rules. I have now completed the coding and completed my initial testing, however I am not an expert of the FIDE Swiss pairing rules. In order to continue my testing I am trying to find tournaments (with cross tables on the Internet) paired with Swiss perfect, Swiss Manager etc or paired by a person who is an expert in the FIDE Swiss pairing rules. I will then re-pair the tournament using my software and investigate the differences.

    Does anyone know of any such tournaments and if so can you let me know where they are on the Internet.


    Once I re-pair these tournaments, it is very likely that there will be differences. I am looking for a FIDE Swiss pairing expert to help me understand why, so that I can correct my program. Any volunteers? (A free version of the software to anyone capable and willing to help)

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilH
    Over the last couple of months I have been developing a program to perform swiss pairing according to the FIDE Swiss pairing rules. I have now completed the coding and completed my initial testing, however I am not an expert of the FIDE Swiss pairing rules. In order to continue my testing I am trying to find tournaments (with cross tables on the Internet) paired with Swiss perfect, Swiss Manager etc or paired by a person who is an expert in the FIDE Swiss pairing rules. I will then re-pair the tournament using my software and investigate the differences.

    Does anyone know of any such tournaments and if so can you let me know where they are on the Internet.


    Once I re-pair these tournaments, it is very likely that there will be differences. I am looking for a FIDE Swiss pairing expert to help me understand why, so that I can correct my program. Any volunteers? (A free version of the software to anyone capable and willing to help)
    It's really just a matter of hunting around. Most FIDE Tournaments now seem to be paired using either Swiss Manager or Swiss Master 5 so you could trace them through the FIDE web site either on the home page news or in the calendar menu. Also the Swiss Manager website has a news page where it gives the results and details of some tournaments run using SM. Swiss perfect is used extensively in Australia and has been adopted also by the Irish Chess Federation. I think that some tournaments in India also use Swiss Perfect. SP is not a FIDE-approved program so it is not widely used. The other two are FIDE-approved.

    Beyond that I don't count myself a sufficiently expert to advise on the trickier problems that may arise. Sorry!

    DJ
    Last edited by Denis_Jessop; 02-09-2007 at 10:59 PM. Reason: Final para added.
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  3. #3
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    You can download previous version of Swiss Master on DOS like interface from many websites and simulate some tournaments. Besides it's free, it's very reliable and sticks to the rules.

    Hope this helps.
    Chang

  4. #4
    CC Rookie NeilH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop
    ... Also the Swiss Manager website has a news page where it gives the results and details of some tournaments run using SM. ...
    DJ
    Thanks Dennis. Swiss Master website has a host of tournament cross tables that will provide me with a wealth of information.

    I have tried one tournament and it has already highlighted a number of potential problems with my code. Now all I have to do is work my way through the problems.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilH
    Thanks Dennis. Swiss Master website has a host of tournament cross tables that will provide me with a wealth of information.

    I have tried one tournament and it has already highlighted a number of potential problems with my code. Now all I have to do is work my way through the problems.
    Since I asked myself the same question (where can I find pairing data for tournaments managed with various pairing software) some weeks ago, I put up a wiki page to collect some links to tournament data. The URL is: http://www.aglaz.de/swiss-pairing/field.php

    I'll use the data on the wiki for testing Games::Tournament::Swiss (http://search.cpan.org/~drbean/Games...nt-Swiss-0.06/ ) written by drbean and announced in this forum (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=5953 ). At the moment I have collected some links to tournaments paired with Swiss-Chess -- a programm which is common in Germany.

    Feel free to add links to other tournaments to the wiki.

    Best regards

    Christian

  6. #6
    CC Rookie NeilH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartolin
    Since I asked myself the same question (where can I find pairing data for tournaments managed with various pairing software) some weeks ago, I put up a wiki page to collect some links to tournament data. The URL is: http://www.aglaz.de/swiss-pairing/field.php
    Thanks for this Christian.

    I have been looking at the Swiss Manager website recommended by Denis is this thread. The problem I'm finding is that some tournament pairings have been manually amended. For instance http://chess-results.com/tnr7621.asp...ag=30&mm=1&m=1 board 10 and 11 have been changed from a pure pairing. Not a problem here as it is obvious, but Round 2 seems to contain more 'adjustments'

    What I am looking for is tournaments known to be pure FIDE Swiss pairing, without any manual adjustments.

    This one seems to be pure FIDE Swiss http://chess-results.com/tnr7822.asp...m=1&turdet=YES

    The way I have found a few Swiss Perfect tournaments is looking for pages generated by 'Created by sp2html' . The tournament at http://www.caq.org.au/htm/Results/20...pen/index.html seems to be Pure FIDE Swiss.

    At present I can pair the second tournament correctly, but I am having a problem with the first at the moment. I need a FIDE Swiss pairing expert to answer a question on this one.

    I will try pairing some of the tournaments you have listed on your Wiki and see how I get on.

    Thanks

    Neil

  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilH
    Thanks for this Christian.

    I have been looking at the Swiss Manager website recommended by Denis is this thread. The problem I'm finding is that some tournament pairings have been manually amended. For instance http://chess-results.com/tnr7621.asp...ag=30&mm=1&m=1 board 10 and 11 have been changed from a pure pairing. Not a problem here as it is obvious, but Round 2 seems to contain more 'adjustments'

    What I am looking for is tournaments known to be pure FIDE Swiss pairing, without any manual adjustments.

    This one seems to be pure FIDE Swiss http://chess-results.com/tnr7822.asp...m=1&turdet=YES

    The way I have found a few Swiss Perfect tournaments is looking for pages generated by 'Created by sp2html' . The tournament at http://www.caq.org.au/htm/Results/20...pen/index.html seems to be Pure FIDE Swiss.

    At present I can pair the second tournament correctly, but I am having a problem with the first at the moment. I need a FIDE Swiss pairing expert to answer a question on this one.

    I will try pairing some of the tournaments you have listed on your Wiki and see how I get on.

    Thanks

    Neil
    The "chess results" web page you found is the one I had in mind when referring to Swiss Manager as it is run by Heinz Herzog who owns Swiss Manager.

    The practice of manual alteration of pairings in FIDE tournamnets is now taboo but it is not infrequently used by users of Swiss Perfect as it has one or two well-known defects in its pairing program. The writer of the program is no longer maintaining it as he has a newer program called League Watch. I have no experience of using LW so can't comment on its effectiveness.

    DJ
    ...I don't want to go among mad people Alice remarked, "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: we're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat ,"or you wouldn't have come here."

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilH
    Thanks for this Christian.

    What I am looking for is tournaments known to be pure FIDE Swiss pairing, without any manual adjustments.

    Neil
    I think that at least for the Neubrandenburg Open 2007 (A Group) [1] there weren't any manual adjustments. But I'm not absolutely certain.

    Best regards

    Christian

    [1] http://www.aglaz.de/swiss-pairing/fi...denburg_2007_A

  9. #9
    CC Rookie NeilH's Avatar
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    I am having problems with the pairing of round 4 of this tournament.
    Basically in round 4 I get different pairings from those published for boards 3-7, which involves players in score bracket 3.

    In this score bracket you have the following players:
    Code:
    S1
    2   Sydow, Hardy            2 2104    # 12,  7,  9 #BWB# #   # 
    4   Kliewe, Hans-Ju         2 2043    # 14,  9,  7 #BWB# #   # 
    5   Zentgraf, Robert        2 2021    # 15,  8, 13 #WBW# #   # 
    S2
    7   Bauer, Norbert          2 1988    # 17,  2,  4 #WBW# #   #
    9   Kutschke, Peter         2 1974    # 19,  4,  2 #WBW# #   # 
    17  Baumgarten, Thoma       2 1773    #  7, 14, 12 #BWB# #  D#
    Both 7 and 9 must play 5 using these sub groups. The published pairings has applied an exchange to get a valid pairing. I reduce p to 2.

    Rule C.8 of the FIDE Swiss pairing rules states
    "In case of a homogeneous (remainder) group: apply a new exchange between S1 and S2 according to D2. Restart at C5. "

    So although this is a homogeneous score bracket, it is not a remainder score bracket, so I have not applied any exchanges.

    What is the correct interpretation of this rules?
    Can exchanges only be applied to score brackets that are homogeneous and a remainder score bracket or can they be applied to any homogeneous score bracket?

  10. #10
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilH
    Rule C.8 of the FIDE Swiss pairing rules states
    "In case of a homogeneous (remainder) group: apply a new exchange between S1 and S2 according to D2. Restart at C5. "

    So although this is a homogeneous score bracket, it is not a remainder score bracket, so I have not applied any exchanges.

    What is the correct interpretation of this rules?
    Can exchanges only be applied to score brackets that are homogeneous and a remainder score bracket or can they be applied to any homogeneous score bracket?
    C8 is poorly worded. Apply the exchange.
    Exchanges apply in all score brackets except heterogeneous.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilH
    Once I re-pair these tournaments, it is very likely that there will be differences. I am looking for a FIDE Swiss pairing expert to help me understand why, so that I can correct my program. Any volunteers? (A free version of the software to anyone capable and willing to help)
    Is it a commercial project? If it isn't, why not open source it? If you did, I am sure you would find a lot of people willing to assist you very directly.

  12. #12
    CC Rookie NeilH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Is it a commercial project? If it isn't, why not open source it? If you did, I am sure you would find a lot of people willing to assist you very directly.
    That's a difficult question. It is part of a semi-commercial project. I do sell Tournament Director for Windows at the moment. The software is very much ECF based. It is more a hobby than a commercial project. At present I am looking to extend the software to an international base. The first step is to add FIDE pairing and results submission.

    I would be willing to make the FIDE Swiss pairing code 'open' the problem is that the code is highly linked/integrated with the rest of Tournament Director for Windows, so in it self it wouldn't be runable, but could be adapted to be a standalone tool.

    If people have the expertise and are willing to help I will offer them a free version of the software and, with their help, I will adapt the software for their home federation.

  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Hello Neil,

    Wasnt Tournament Director just used at the Liverpool Open?

  14. #14
    CC Rookie NeilH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    Wasnt Tournament Director just used at the Liverpool Open?
    Yes it was used at the Liverpool Open and it has been used at the British Championships for the last two years.

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