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  1. #46
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine
    It is a bit like making love ....... apologising before you begin doesn't make it any better.
    Let's get a couple of things straight.

    First, I'm not apologising for anything (yet) as I am unaware of any indiscretion. So no more words in the mouth thanks.

    Second, you have offered another *yawn* conviction. I'm calling for the (considered and documented) evidence.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  2. #47
    CC Candidate Master Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    Let's get a couple of things straight.

    First, I'm not apologising for anything (yet) as I am unaware of any indiscretion. So no more words in the mouth thanks.

    Second, you have offered another *yawn* conviction. I'm calling for the (considered and documented) evidence.
    I don't know that there is evidence - just personal standards and sensibilities.

    Personally, I was enjoying the recollections of Pal's peers and thought it was nice he was be remembered in that way.

    Your comment was a dampener on the mood and the flow - even if I may agree with it in a different context. The salvo of "I don't really want to" but I'm going to anyway didn't help and this is where the discussion is now.

    Again, personally, I'm disappointed and would have liked the previous discussion to go as it was without the moral judgements - this is what happens with the deceased - you remeber their positives and forgive their fralities.

  3. #48
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine
    Your comment was a dampener on the mood and the flow - even if I may agree with it in a different context.
    I appreciate that point now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine
    The salvo of "I don't really want to" but I'm going to anyway didn't help and this is where the discussion is now.
    That was not my intention to come off like that. I thought I was genuinely making a distinction, and genuinely entitled to do so. I should have started a different thread in hindsight (wonderful thing that). More than one person whose judgement I respect has pointed this out to me. I will endeavour not to repeat the mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine
    ... this is what happens with the deceased - you remember their positives and forgive their frailties.
    Indeed.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  4. #49
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    Does anyone else have some input for me on this issue? Constructive please and with examples. Also request that the thread is read in its entirety first.
    The point at which I differ from your version is this:

    "You seem to be asserting that alcoholics are unable to make this leap. I assert that they haven't yet found the strength to do so."

    This is all a bit too free-will for my liking. No question that those who seek help for an addiction problem, never mind those who succeed in beating it as a result, display considerable strength of character in doing so.

    But this does not mean that another person bringing the same level of strength of character to bear on the problem will necessarily be able to take the same steps. The chemical and psychological barriers to one person doing so are not necessarily the same as they are for another - and even if it looks like they are, they may still not be.

  5. #50
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Thanks Kevin. I was more looking for evidence of my "deplorable" behaviour. Nonetheless, I am interested in this and will respond (consider a thread split any time you like )

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    The point at which I differ from your version is this: "You seem to be asserting that alcoholics are unable to make this leap. I assert that they haven't yet found the strength to do so."
    I don't think any party has taken the time to completely flesh out their position (version) with the sensitivity and accuracy required under the circumstances. You are more than legitimately entitled to quote me (and I don't mind) but my words weren't wholly representative of my position (on account of the expediency referred to above).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    This is all a bit too free-will for my liking.
    There is something in what you say, but ultimately insufficient, for me. Will get to it in a second.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    No question that those who seek help for an addiction problem, never mind those who succeed in beating it as a result, display considerable strength of character in doing so.
    OK. I think we'd mostly agree that those that 'kick' have done well, in the character demonstrated, any possible luck involved such as life circumstances or even a genetic hand-out at birth etc..

    Just on the smoking issue, it was very hard for me as an addict to argue with myself to a satisfactory resolution over the failure of my resolute conviction to quit when I became a father (2003). Andrew was born, I stopped cold turkey for 3 weeks. He was diagnosed 3 weeks after birth. Within 5 minutes of breaking down on receiving the news (I was interstate) I had a cigarette in my gob. The questions I struggled with are "Am I allowed to use Andrew's condition as a crutch for taking it up?" "If so (as in 'hey, who wouldn't - I hadn't fully quit and that was quite a shock'), then how can I justify continuing to smoke when my family needs a bread-winnner and long-term carer more than most?" And so it went on. My point is that I am not unsympathetic to your counter suggestion of "an inability to quit is an inability to quit - blame the drug and its availability and so forth" {paraphrasing acknowledged}.

    As a smoker again (I subsequently quit for 4 1/2 months after the arrival of my second son) now endangering my life, I am as guilty as those I accuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    But this does not mean that another person bringing the same level of strength of character to bear on the problem will necessarily be able to take the same steps. The chemical and psychological barriers to one person doing so are not necessarily the same as they are for another - and even if it looks like they are, they may still not be.
    However, on this difficult issue, I fall on the other side to you. I believe alcoholics are aware of the damage, chaos and harm they cause. I would point to any alcoholic's attempt to give up as entirely sufficient proof of this. I doubt (although I can't know) that there has existed a life-long alcoholic who has never once tried. The few that I know have all tried.

    As with most addictions, the addicts do steal, cheat, lie and so forth and a community provides an infrastructure at a cost. Incidentally, in my industry, there is an acute awareness of the harm and cost (social and financial) of drug addicts (home-breaking, precious family photos disappearing, those that can least afford security being primary targets etc.). Our (industry) attention (rage/ interest) is primarily targeted at the pushers (those that turn the kids on). So, again, neither unsympathetic nor unaware of the heart of the problem. We can go on about gamblers. While each addiction differs, there is sufficient commonality for the purposes of this conversation.

    Extrapolating the consequences of (I believe) your (and I believe) Paul's belief, I can only draw the conclusion for you (both) that addicts have no onus of responsibility. And this is where I see a flaw in the position. Just as it is not possible to be a little pregnant, there is either an onus on the part of the addict or there isn't. As you have both (IMO) fluffed the issue of onus, I can only conclude that your only conclusion is that there is no onus. Perhaps neither of you have understood that about your beliefs yet. I could be wrong and I don't mean to insult. (Equally the same may apply to me - no high ground or moralising over on this side).

    Sure, the difficulty of beating addiction will be greater for some than others, but as I have said, smoking is one of the most powerful addictions known, and a bloke I know quite well (he has a son with a disability you know) who smokes and wants to give up - just can't/ won't - don't know which - but one thing's for sure - it's HIS bloody responsibility and he better bloody do it

    Finally, for those who rally behind the "no onus" flag, may I ask that you get very busy and start lobbying your politicians, because you are sanctioning crime and community cost and forgiving the perpetrators for the actions on account of their being unable to assist themselves.

    Finally, a cab driver's tale that better belongs here than there:

    Midnight. Despatched to pick up a mid 20s man. Government docket (all paid for). The police have called the job in. Take him to St. Such-and-such Church and ring the bell please driver. Father Fred will answer and give him a bed for the night.

    I get the bloke to the church and ring the bell. I talk to Father Fred. Long story short - Father Fred peered out of his hole and didn't want a bar of him. Fr. Fred's beds and time were for people that wanted to help themselves. He'd helped the bloke before (apparently half of Qld's Salvos and govt. agencies had been all over him as well). But Father Fred said he was a lost cause, he'd sucked up all the help offered and Fr Fred wanted to see this bloke show the teeniest bit of frickin' gumption and try to help himself.
    Last edited by Basil; 12-09-2007 at 11:25 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  6. #51
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Complex Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan

    As with most addictions, the addicts do steal, cheat, lie and so forth and a community provides an infrastructure at a cost. Incidentally, in my industry, there is an acute awareness of the harm and cost of crack addicts (home-breaking, precious family photos disappearing, those that can least afford security being primary targets etc.). Our (industry) attention (rage/ interest) is primarily targeted at the pushers (those that turn the kids on). So, again, neither unsympathetic nor unaware of the heart of the problem. We can go on about gamblers. While each addiction differs, there is sufficient commonality for the purposes of this conversation.

    Extrapolating the consequences of (I believe) your (and I believe) Paul's belief, I can only draw the conclusion for you (both) that addicts have no onus of responsibility. And this is where I see a flaw in the position. Just as it is not possible to be a little pregnant, there is either an onus on the part of the addict or there isn't. As you have both (IMO) fluffed the issue of onus, I can only conclude that your only conclusion is that there is no onus. Perhaps neither of you have understood that about your beliefs yet. I could be wrong and I don't mean to insult. (Equally the same may apply to me - no high ground or moralising over on this side).

    Sure, the difficulty of beating addiction will be greater for some than others, but as I have said, smoking is one of the most powerful addictions known, and a bloke I know quite well (he has a son with a disability you know) who smokes and wants to give up - just can't/ won't - don't know which - but one thing's for sure - it's HIS bloody responsibility and he better bloody do it

    Finally, for those who rally behind the "no onus" flag, may I ask that you get very busy and start lobbying your politicians, because you are sanctioning crime and community cost and forgiving the perpetrators for the actions on account of their being unable to assist themselves.

    Finally, a cab driver's tale that better belongs here than there:

    Midnight. Despatched to pick up a mid 20s man. Government docket (all paid for). The police have called the job in. Take him to St. Such-and-such Church and ring the bell please driver. Father Fred will answer and give him a bed for the night.

    I get the bloke to the church and ring the bell. I talk to Father Fred. Long story short - Father Fred peered out of his hole and tdidn't want a bar of him. Fr Fred's beds and precious time were for people that wanted to help themselves. He'd helped the bloke before (apparently half of Qld's Salvos and govt. agencies had been all over him as well). But Father Fred said he was a lost cause, he'd sucked up all the help offered and Fr Fred wanted to see this bloke show the teeniest bit of frickin' gumption and try to help himself.
    there is a commonly held view that if you hammer someone down to their lowest ebb,they will bounce back wiser and stronger,however,sadly, many do not respond this way, and are simply beaten down to oblivion.

    And to that you may well say "well life is tough" or similar, and maybe thats the acceptable bottom line,......but is it acceptable not to care for those that cannot care for themselves? At which point is this determined? How much care is valid? Who decides? and why? Where should the line be drawn?

  7. #52
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    there is a commonly held view that if you hammer someone down to their lowest ebb,they will bounce back wiser and stronger,however,sadly, many do not respond this way, and are simply beaten down to oblivion.
    That prevalence may exist. I am unaware of it. Regardless, I don't see its relevance to this thread.

    I have considerable experience with depression - I'm sure I'm not alone. Your rhetorical observations are most worthwhile. The difficulty we are (all) going to face in this thread is inter-relativity of the issues. My final word on that topic (regrettably) is that there is no simple answer (that I am aware of) and therefore cannot participate any further on that issue. Sorry. I certainly don't affix my post above to that scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    ...but is it acceptable not to care for those that cannot care for themselves?
    I sense line blurring. You are talking about those cannot care for themselves. I'm talking about those who won't. Do you accept that there are some people who are alcoholics and do have an ability to and an obligation to stop and won't?
    Last edited by Basil; 13-09-2007 at 12:16 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  8. #53
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    I sense line blurring. You are talking about those cannot care for themselves. I'm talking about those who won't. Do you accept that there are some people who are alcoholics and do have an ability to and an obligation to stop and won't?
    yes, and do you accept some who appear that way, actually cannot indeed help themselves?


    realising the definitional problem here.
    Last edited by Axiom; 13-09-2007 at 05:23 PM.

  9. #54
    CC Candidate Master Sunshine's Avatar
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    Axiom, I think you would have loved Pal Dosza - he was just like a Siberian Chess Tiger !

    I only knew Pal when I was a junior and he was, I imagine, in better shape than his later years. There was always the impression that he had a grand history in chess before coming to Australia and that he was a little above the local chess scene.

    There were also occasions where you had to chip in a little extra for a group meal to cover Pal's share - the idea of doing a restaurant runner was always considered among the group at that time (glad to say I never actually did one).

  10. #55
    CC Candidate Master Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    Sure, the difficulty of beating addiction will be greater for some than others
    Gunner, I am with you on this - personal responsibility all the way.

    Some have different starting points and challenges - but all are capable of avoiding or overcoming the addiction.

    It is definitely a hard road - but much better than just putting them in the too hard basket. I too have personal experiences with this.

  11. #56
    CC Candidate Master Sutek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gattaca
    By the way, am I right in recollecting that at one point Dosza found it expedient to anglicise his surname, and showing a certain insightful humour he chose the name Paul Dodge?
    He used a lot of abbreviations over the years but I'm sure "Paul Dodge" was one of them.
    His actual first name was "Pal" (like Pal Benko) but translated he preferred Paul.

    There's another funny story about him having to hock his ECO's.
    He managed to convince the pawn broker how valuable they were to a professional master like himself and in the end probably got more then they were actually worth!
    Last edited by Sutek; 13-09-2007 at 01:26 PM.

  12. #57
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    My point is that I am not unsympathetic to your counter suggestion of "an inability to quit is an inability to quit - blame the drug and its availability and so forth" {paraphrasing acknowledged}.
    I'm not saying that's a universal counter-suggestion. I'd expect that in many cases a failure to even attempt quitting would result from lack of interest in quitting or weaknesses of character. I just don't think it can be assumed that it is always like that, and concerning Dozsa in particular, he was such a strange one that I wouldn't care to second-guess for a moment what was going on inside his head.

    However, on this difficult issue, I fall on the other side to you. I believe alcoholics are aware of the damage, chaos and harm they cause. I would point to any alcoholic's attempt to give up as entirely sufficient proof of this. I doubt (although I can't know) that there has existed a life-long alcoholic who has never once tried. The few that I know have all tried.
    The ones that haven't tried may well exist, but may not move in your kind of social circles or indeed in social circles as such at all.

    Extrapolating the consequences of (I believe) your (and I believe) Paul's belief, I can only draw the conclusion for you (both) that addicts have no onus of responsibility.
    Again, not quite. My position is that that "responsibility" can only exist where progress (or making the attempt at progress) is actually possible for that person, but given that person's own issues it may or may not be.

    Also, if someone is addicted and it only harms themselves (not that this appears relevant to Dozsa), that's their problem and it's up to them whether they fix it or not. I don't buy the "oh but our taxes pay for their healthcare" line for an instant as taxes pay for so many people's healthcare and there are all kinds of unsound life choices a person can make from that perspective. My favourite example - football is a health risk, should we ban it?
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 13-09-2007 at 02:15 PM.

  13. #58
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    Wrong Surname spelling in title and a bunch of folks " follow suit"
    Very Sloppy...

  14. #59
    CC International Master Watto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gringo
    Wrong Surname spelling in title and a bunch of folks " follow suit"
    Very Sloppy...
    I've just googled: Kerry was misled by the Victorian Police... or at least Crime Stoppers Victoria. Have to laugh.
    Last edited by Watto; 13-09-2007 at 02:37 PM.

  15. #60
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watto
    I've just googled: Kerry was misled by the Victorian Police...
    So not only did they not know he was dead, they couldn't spell his name right either!

    I've edited the thread title to the correct "Dozsa" and also such of my posts as were wrong.

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