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  1. #31
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    No offence taken at all, Paul. Not uppity either.

    His alcoholism forgives him nothing.

    Mental problems are a different kettle of fish, but still not necessarilly a get-out-of-gaol-card.

    By all accounts, he knew what he was doing and he knew it was wrong (likely), and was quite happy to repeat the exercise.

    I'm at a disadvantage in not knowing whether he showed remorse or investigated medication to assist. On account of his now being deceased, I wish to make no further comment.

    On the living, who receive such favourable consideration, I stand by all that I have said.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  2. #32
    CC International Master Kerry Stead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gattaca
    One of Dosza greatest contributions to humanity was in the field of fashion. He was the first and only person I have seen to tie his goatee with an elastic band, which produced an eccentric but quite distinguished look.
    Obviously you weren't a fan of '70s & '80s WWF wrestling ... and know nothing of Captain Lou Albano:

    http://www.wwe.com/superstars/hallof...loualbano/bio/

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    No offence taken at all, Paul. Not uppity either.

    His alcoholism forgives him nothing.

    Mental problems are a different kettle of fish, but still not necessarilly a get-out-of-gaol-card.

    By all accounts, he knew what he was doing and he knew it was wrong (likely), and was quite happy to repeat the exercise.

    I'm at a disadvantage in not knowing whether he showed remorse or investigated medication to assist. On account of his now being deceased, I wish to make no further comment.

    On the living, who receive such favourable consideration, I stand by all that I have said.
    I'm surprised you distinguish between alcoholism and mental problems; surely alcoholism is a mental problem in the relevant sense. Likewise, I'm surprised that you see some moral distinction between the two (on what grounds?).

    Knowing what you are doing and knowing that it is wrong are neither here nor there if you can't control your behaviour. And it seems likely - if not certain - that alcoholics can't control their behaviour.

    (As it happens, Pal did take some responsibility for his antics. I remember another chess player complaining about something a chess journalist had written about Dosza. Pal, with refreshing dignity, responded along the lines that as he had done the things the journalist said, the publicity was fair enough).

    I know a little more about this issue than most: my twin brother is a full-blown alcoholic. His alcoholism has caused a lot of problems in my family; but that's bugger-all compared to how it affects him. He's destitute, desperately lonely, and forever apologising for whatever he did the other day. He is regularly beaten up, and the simplest of tasks is a trial for him. He is shunned and treated with contempt by just about everyone. The reason I think it's very likely that alcoholics cannot control their behaviour, in some suitably strong sense, is that it's simply not plausible that anyone would choose such a condition. This is a fact that is often not sufficiently appreciated. His life, supposedly indulgent, is actually far worse than a sober person's. Forgives him nothing? For goodness sake, who are you to say? With all your white-bread, joe-average, conservative, predictable certainties - who the hell are you to say?

    As I understand it, the recovery rate for alcoholism is less than 10 per cent - much worse than that for most drugs. There simply is no effective treatment - believe me, the Russians have searched. Alcoholism, interestingly enough, also differs from other forms of drug addiction in that it is almost always accompanied by significant personality problems. It's just simplistic and stupid to trot out the standard, law-abiding, holier-than-thou cliches.
    Last edited by paulb; 10-09-2007 at 03:40 AM.
    cheers - paulb

  4. #34
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    Reading the posts by Kevin Bonham and Sutek brought back other memories of Dosza's antics. He certainly added extra colour to the chess firmament.

    Gunner, I don't think anyone is saying that it's okay to rip people off if you do it in a charming way, only that Paul was more than just a scoundrel, he had some positive attributes and talents too. He was a sad figure in many ways, obviously, but provided a lot of humour and had some endearing qualities. He usually exhibited very good manners as he swindled someone, and let's face it, good manners are hard to find these days. Why else are we here on this bulletin board other than to mix with people of exemplary politeness and good manners?

    By the way, am I right in recollecting that at one point Dosza found it expedient to anglicise his surname, and showing a certain insightful humour he chose the name Paul Dodge?

    Kerry, I stand corrected! All credit to Captain Lou. Once again I am reminded that 'there is nothing new under the sun.'
    Last edited by Gattaca; 10-09-2007 at 12:33 PM.

  5. #35
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    I'm surprised you distinguish between alcoholism and mental problems; surely alcoholism is a mental problem in the relevant sense. Likewise, I'm surprised that you see some moral distinction between the two (on what grounds?).
    I'm surprised that you can't distinguish between the pair; or rather that we have both failed to identify the difference between an inherent one (mental problem) and one that results from addiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    Knowing what you are doing and knowing that it is wrong are neither here nor there if you can't control your behaviour. And it seems likely - if not certain - that alcoholics can't control their behaviour.
    No. Again you are rolling two issues into one. I believe you are painting a picture where alcoholics have no lucidity, self-awareness and capacity to identify and stop their behaviour. This POV (if it is indeed yours) is poppycock.

    Step #1 at AA (apart from the self-realisation) is to stand up and say "I'm Howard and I'm an alcoholic. I'm here because I need help. I've destroyed everything and everyone around around me."

    You seem to be asserting that alcoholics are unable to make this leap. I assert that they haven't yet found the strength to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    As it happens, Pal did take some responsibility for his antics.
    Now you are arguing against yourself, or certainly weakening your earlier assertion (where you sought to remove the onus of responsibility where the knowledge of right from wrong was irrelevant if the alcoholic couldn't control their behaviour).

    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    I know a little more about this issue than most: my twin brother is a full-blown alcoholic.
    Snap. Melina's brother is a full-blown alcoholic. She's just left the house (as I write) to go and visit him. He lives 10 minutes up the road with his mother where he's about to be turfed for the umpteenth time for lying, cheating, stealing and generally being a lazy so and so. Of course, he's very sorry and he wish he could stop

    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    His alcoholism has caused a lot of problems in my family; but that's bugger-all compared to how it affects him. He's destitute, desperately lonely, and forever apologising for whatever he did the other day.
    Snap. Identical behaviour. Identical life situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    He is regularly beaten up, and the simplest of tasks is a trial for him. He is shunned and treated with contempt by just about everyone.
    Snap. Identical. He's lived on the streets. Lost the will to live. Ranted about aliens. Urinates himself wherever he's sitting (indoors or out), requires a cane to walk.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    The reason I think it's very likely that alcoholics cannot control their behaviour, in some suitably strong sense, is that it's simply not plausible that anyone would choose such a condition.
    Paul, I disagree, but with extreme empathy. No-one would choose this life for themselves (from the beginning). Smokers (many) say the same - although there is a world between the addictions, the apparent inability to stop has its roots in similar areas.

    Steve K made an excellent point in the smoking thread about the selfishness of not giving up smoking (where children or responsibilities) are involved. I am struggling to beat that addiction - but nonetheless while I am addicted and it may be comforting to rely on that defence, I must drill down (as hard as I must) and quit. Same for our relatives. Not saying its easy. Just saying that they must - and its provable that they can - and that no-one else on the planet can do it for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    This is a fact that is often not sufficiently appreciated. His life, supposedly indulgent, is actually far worse than a sober person's.
    Snap. He's lived on welfare for a decade. Had nothing but freebies and helping hands. His life is clearly miserable.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    Forgives him nothing? For goodness sake, who are you to say? With all your white-bread, joe-average, conservative, predictable certainties - who the hell are you to say?
    I'll put this on the back-burner for you to reflect on and get back to me at a later date if you so wish. I assume you are aware that my joe-average, predictable certainties to date have included:
    -- Business difficulties which I chose not to describe here which resulted in the sale of the family home (thankfully more than recovered now)
    -- The (now well-worn) news that I have a son who can't roll over, let alone walk, talk or even sit up. That's a seventy year sentence for him, a rest of life caring scenario for me and melina (unless his life expectancy decreases through the degenerative effects of not using muscles). Do I need to discuss in detail the toileting, lifting, grieving, staring and so forth that goes with this. Every day? For the part 4 years and the next however many. When that's done, there's the uncertainty and sadness of what will happen to him when I'm gone. Should we talk about the daily grieving for 'lost' life for one's first-born that this joe average white bread clown deals with, that permeates meetings, social gatherings, the dead of night?

    Incidentally (all) I'm fine. I just had to take a few moments to illustrate the (insert appropriate word here) of Paul's assertion regarding my 'white bread certainties' BTW, if you wish to retract, I'll consider the matter closed. Andrew is not a crutch and you may not have known. But I think this serves a timely reminder to us all that we really can't get a handle on each other's lives from a damn bulletin board.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    As I understand it, the recovery rate for alcoholism is less than 10 per cent - much worse than that for most drugs. There simply is no effective treatment - believe me, the Russians have searched. Alcoholism, interestingly enough, also differs from other forms of drug addiction in that it is almost always accompanied by significant personality problems.
    This may all be true. I don't know. I'd like an opportunity to check. On the strength of your other assertions here, you'll forgive me for not taking them at face value.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    It's just simplistic and stupid to trot out the standard, law-abiding, holier-than-thou cliches.
    Well as you have seen, with alcoholism in my family and Andrew's cerebral palsy, your assessment might be a little trigger happy. No, I'm not insulted and nor am I angry.
    Last edited by Basil; 10-09-2007 at 03:12 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  6. #36
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gattaca
    ... he had some positive attributes and talents too.
    Of course. Perhaps the discussion between myself and Paul (B) could be split and this thread can continue to celebrate Paul's (Pal) life and personality.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  7. #37
    CC Candidate Master Sunshine's Avatar
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    Well there is a lot on the table there.

    On the topic at hand, I think people should be allowed to recall fond memories of the deceased without too much moralising by those who did not know them.

    Likewise I am very sympathetic to your situation Gunner which is every parents worst fear. I had Wayne Bennett speak recently about his similar situation and how he can never stop worrying about what will happens when he dies.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    I'm surprised that you can't distinguish between the pair; or rather that we have both failed to identify the difference between an inherent one (mental problem) and one that results from addiction.


    No. Again you are rolling two issues into one. I believe you are painting a picture where alcoholics have no lucidity, self-awareness and capacity to identify and stop their behaviour. This POV (if it is indeed yours) is poppycock.

    Step #1 at AA (apart from the self-realisation) is to stand up and say "I'm Howard and I'm an alcoholic. I'm here because I need help. I've destroyed everything and everyone around around me."

    You seem to be asserting that alcoholics are unable to make this leap. I assert that they haven't yet found the strength to do so.


    Now you are arguing against yourself, or certainly weakening your earlier assertion (where you sought to remove the onus of responsibility where the knowledge of right from wrong was irrelevant if the alcoholic couldn't control their behaviour).


    Snap. Melina's brother is a full-blown alcoholic. She's just left the house (as I write) to go and visit him. He lives 10 minutes up the road with his mother where he's about to be turfed for the umpteenth time for lying, cheating, stealing and generally being a lazy so and so. Of course, he's very sorry and he wish he could stop


    Snap. Identical behaviour. Identical life situation.


    Snap. Identical. He's lived on the streets. Lost the will to live. Ranted about aliens. Urinates himself wherever he's sitting (indoors or out), requires a cane to walk.


    Paul, I disagree, but with extreme empathy. No-one would choose this life for themselves (from the beginning). Smokers (many) say the same - although there is a world between the addictions, the apparent inability to stop has its roots in similar areas.

    Steve K made an excellent point in the smoking thread about the selfishness of not giving up smoking (where children or responsibilities) are involved. I am struggling to beat that addiction - but nonetheless while I am addicted and it may be comforting to rely on that defence, I must drill down (as hard as I must) and quit. Same for our relatives. Not saying its easy. Just saying that they must - and its provable that they can - and that no-one else on the planet can do it for them.


    Snap. He's lived on welfare for a decade. Had nothing but freebies and helping hands. His life is clearly miserable.


    I'll put this on the back-burner for you to reflect on and get back to me at a later date if you so wish. I assume you are aware that my joe-average, predictable certainties to date have included:
    -- Business difficulties which I chose not to describe here which resulted in the sale of the family home (thankfully more than recovered now)
    -- The (now well-worn) news that I have a son who can't roll over, let alone walk, talk or even sit up. That's a seventy year sentence for him, a rest of life caring scenario for me and melina (unless his life expectancy decreases through the degenerative effects of not using muscles). Do I need to discuss in detail the toileting, lifting, grieving, staring and so forth that goes with this. Every day? For the part 4 years and the next however many. When that's done, there's the uncertainty and sadness of what will happen to him when I'm gone. Should we talk about the daily grieving for 'lost' life for one's first-born that this joe average white bread clown deals with, that permeates meetings, social gatherings, the dead of night?

    Incidentally (all) I'm fine. I just had to take a few moments to illustrate the (insert appropriate word here) of Paul's assertion regarding my 'white bread certainties' BTW, if you wish to retract, I'll consider the matter closed. Andrew is not a crutch and you may not have known. But I think this serves a timely reminder to us all that we really can't get a handle on each other's lives from a damn bulletin board.


    This may all be true. I don't know. I'd like an opportunity to check. On the strength of your other assertions here, you'll forgive me for not taking them at face value.


    Well as you have seen, with alcoholism in my family and Andrew's cerebral palsy, your assessment might be a little trigger happy. No, I'm not insulted and nor am I angry.
    Howard, I muchly respect you - you're certainly one of the more interesting characters around here - and I greatly sympathise with your problems with your son and your brother-in-law (?).

    Nevertheless, your remarks about alcoholism are just dumb and deserve to be denounced as such. In such cases, politeness just gets in the way. I'll respond more elaborately later.
    Last edited by paulb; 11-09-2007 at 05:12 AM.
    cheers - paulb

  9. #39
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    Howard, I muchly respect you - you're certainly one of the more interesting characters around here
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    and I greatly sympathise with your problems with your son and your brother-in-law
    Thanks, but not necessary. The only reason the circumstances were mentioned were because of your life certainty comment which was clearly off-beam and ill-informed.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulb
    Nevertheless, your remarks about alcoholism are just dumb and deserve to be denounced as such.
    Denounce away. You'll appreciate that doesn't make you right, no matter how heart-felt the position.
    Last edited by Basil; 11-09-2007 at 09:56 AM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  10. #40
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine
    On the topic at hand, I think people should be allowed to recall fond memories of the deceased without too much moralising by those who did not know them.
    I was at pains at the outset to remove my comments from Paul and indeed actually stated at the outset that i didn't know him. My comments were general and I have championed a thread split.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine
    Likewise I am very sympathetic to your situation Gunner which is every parents worst fear.
    Actually not worst fear. Certainly a load, but we consider ourselves a most fortunate family when all is considered.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  11. #41
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Great family!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    .... we consider ourselves a most fortunate family when all is considered.
    ... and the most beautiful, charming, happy, and most entertaining family I have ever had the honour and pleasure to meet. The scene of Gunner conducting acrobatics with Andrew in Adelaide earlier this year was a great example of a formidable father and son relationship. The Duggans have no need of fear. God bless them, I wish all families were as happy and beaming of life and enthusiasm.
    Cheers and good luck!
    ACF 3118316
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  12. #42
    CC International Master Watto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyknight
    ... and the most beautiful, charming, happy, and most entertaining family I have ever had the honour and pleasure to meet. The scene of Gunner conducting acrobatics with Andrew in Adelaide earlier this year was a great example of a formidable father and son relationship. The Duggans have no need of fear. God bless them, I wish all families were as happy and beaming of life and enthusiasm.
    Cheers and good luck!
    Okay, out with it hk, how much did Gunner pay you when you met down in Adelaide?

  13. #43
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    * EDITED on request

    I have received a PM from someone who has summarily condemned my behaviour in this thread. He/ she and I are discussing this amicably in PM.

    Does anyone else have some input for me on this issue? Constructive please and with examples. Also request that the thread is read in its entirety first.

    Many thanks
    Last edited by Basil; 11-09-2007 at 01:08 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  14. #44
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watto
    Okay, out with it hk, how much did Gunner pay you when you met down in Adelaide?
    Including GST?
    ACF 3118316
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  15. #45
    CC Candidate Master Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    I was at pains at the outset to remove my comments from Paul and indeed actually stated at the outset that i didn't know him.
    It is a bit like making love ....... apologising before you begin doesn't make it any better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    we consider ourselves a most fortunate family when all is considered.
    I know this is the case and it is a wonderful testimony to humanity.

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