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  1. #1
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    Couple questions about allegro

    I am not sure if these questions have been addressed before. I would appreciate a reference if they were.

    1) What is the rule about playing a dead drawn position in allegro. Let us say I have a rook and a pawn, my opponent has just a rook. We have already made a number of moves in this position. I only have a few seconds left. Can I claim a draw? Does the format matter, e.g. what if we played blitz?

    2) We play allegro but have less than 2 minutes left each. My opponent makes an illegal move. Can I claim a win?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by drug
    I am not sure if these questions have been addressed before. I would appreciate a reference if they were.

    1) What is the rule about playing a dead drawn position in allegro. Let us say I have a rook and a pawn, my opponent has just a rook. We have already made a number of moves in this position. I only have a few seconds left. Can I claim a draw? Does the format matter, e.g. what if we played blitz?
    In Blitz, there are no claims under 10.2, so you cannot claim a draw except by repetition, 50 moves or stalemate.

    In rapid, you can claim but I suspect that you would be wise not to wait until you have a few seconds left. The arbiter must satisfy himself that your opponent is not trying to win the game, and to do so may require observing a few moves. If you do not have enough time to play a few moves you will probably lose on time.

    2) We play allegro but have less than 2 minutes left each. My opponent makes an illegal move. Can I claim a win?
    No. Illegal moves are a win only in blitz.

    See the laws of chess, Appendices B and C:
    http://fide.com/official/handbook.asp?level=EE102
    Last edited by pax; 15-08-2007 at 01:23 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    In Blitz, there are no claims under 10.2, so you cannot claim a draw except by repetition, 50 moves or stalemate.
    Except the question was about allegro, which means rapidplay rules apply (not blitz).

  4. #4
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    Except the question was about allegro, which means rapidplay rules apply (not blitz).
    Depends on what time limit one uses for allegro.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    Except the question was about allegro, which means rapidplay rules apply (not blitz).
    Quote Originally Posted by drug
    Can I claim a draw? Does the format matter, e.g. what if we played blitz?
    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    In Blitz, there are no claims under 10.2...

    In rapid, you can claim ...

  6. #6
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    Just to clarify, blitz is:

    time+60*inc<15.

    Rapid is:

    15<=time+60*inc<=60.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Just to expand upon my claim about 10:30 being an early time to play good chess, 2:46 is an early time to be able to read.

  8. #8
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Rapid is:

    15<=time+60*inc<=60.
    The rules are not very clear on whether the rapid is time<=60 or time<60. The most natural interpretation from the wording is <= however it is not unheard of for G60 games to be treated as classical and not rapid in actual play.

    To my mind treating G60 as classical makes more sense as it is consistent with having the upper bound as a open interval (as is the case with blitz) and is more convenient from a practical point of view of running a weekender with non-incrementing clocks to classical rules. You could run them as G61 to overcome the issue and that is the inconvenience. Allegro in my experience tends to be more associated with the G30 sort of time control rather than G60.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    In Blitz, there are no claims under 10.2, so you cannot claim a draw except by repetition, 50 moves or stalemate.
    Thanks for the prompt reply.

    The above implies that a strategy in blitz could be as follows. You gain 10 seconds advantage on your clocks and enter into dead drawn opposite colour bishop ending. In a meantime your blitz game may suddenly transform into fighting first, then into a boxing match.

    I need to improve my boxing skills because I may really need them in the ending.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    The rules are not very clear on whether the rapid is time<=60 or time<60. The most natural interpretation from the wording is <= however it is not unheard of for G60 games to be treated as classical and not rapid in actual play.
    While G60 is normally treated as classical in Australia, FIDE seems pretty clear (to me) that this is rapid:

    Quote Originally Posted by FIDE Laws of chess
    A ‘Rapidplay’ game is one where either all the moves must be made in a fixed time from 15 to 60 minutes; or the time allotted + 60 times any increment is from 15 to 60 minutes.
    I take your point about open intervals etc, but have to remember that these rules are not written by (or for) mathematicians.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by drug
    Thanks for the prompt reply.

    The above implies that a strategy in blitz could be as follows. You gain 10 seconds advantage on your clocks and enter into dead drawn opposite colour bishop ending. In a meantime your blitz game may suddenly transform into fighting first, then into a boxing match.
    All sorts of unpleasantness is possible in blitz. I have seen king takes king wins (where the winner had only his king and in the days when taking the king was permitted)..

    In fact, that game was a good illustration of why the capturing the king rule needed to be clarified. The loser of the game claimed that his opponent had placed his king ambiguously between a legal square and an illegal square. He assumed the legal square and was bewildered when his king was captured. Unfortunately there was no way to verify the ambiguity claim, so the capture won the gamne.

  12. #12
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    The rules are not very clear on whether the rapid is time<=60 or time<60. The most natural interpretation from the wording is <= however it is not unheard of for G60 games to be treated as classical and not rapid in actual play.

    To my mind treating G60 as classical makes more sense as it is consistent with having the upper bound as a open interval (as is the case with blitz) and is more convenient from a practical point of view of running a weekender with non-incrementing clocks to classical rules. You could run them as G61 to overcome the issue and that is the inconvenience. Allegro in my experience tends to be more associated with the G30 sort of time control rather than G60.
    The FIDE wording in Article B regarding rapid is clear, with rapid being from 15 to 60 mins with the both 15 and 60 included.

    Compare this with the Article C rules on blitz where the term less than 15 mins is used.
    Last edited by Bill Gletsos; 15-08-2007 at 05:19 PM.
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  13. #13
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    The FIDE wording in Article B regarding rapid is clear, with rapid being from 15 to 60 mins with the both 15 and 60 included.

    Compare this with the Article C rules on blitz where the term less than 15 mins is used.
    I agree (as I stated in my post) it is the most natural interpretation but I think saying it is clear is a stretch. Had they used the word "inclusive" then it would have been clear.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  14. #14
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    In rapid, you can claim but I suspect that you would be wise not to wait until you have a few seconds left. The arbiter must satisfy himself that your opponent is not trying to win the game, and to do so may require observing a few moves. If you do not have enough time to play a few moves you will probably lose on time.
    If the claimant is the one with rook and pawn then the arbiter will most likely uphold the draw anyway (unless there is a trick such as very bad king position) - however the player with the rook and pawn may as well offer a draw first and only claim a draw if the offer is rejected.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    If the claimant is the one with rook and pawn then the arbiter will most likely uphold the draw anyway (unless there is a trick such as very bad king position) - however the player with the rook and pawn may as well offer a draw first and only claim a draw if the offer is rejected.
    All the same, if I didn't know in advance how the arbiter was likely to rule, I wouldn't wait until I was on the brink of losing on time..

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