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  1. #1
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    When does the game start?

    I have recently had the following experience. The draw for a round was announced. I grabbed my son to a different room to give him a few final hints before the game. We stayed there literally a few minutes. When my son was about to go, which was probably about 20 seconds after the game in the other room started; we got attacked by the parent of the opponent claiming that coaching during the game is not allowed. Can somebody clarify this situation? We have not entered the room yet so I thought the game for us has not started. Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    Had a move been made on the board yet?
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  3. #3
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    Ex post - yes, he did make the first move...
    Ex ante - we did not know that; as I have said we have not entered the room.

  4. #4
    CC International Master WhiteElephant's Avatar
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    Interesting question. I have read openings books on the train while running late for a game which was already in progress. Surely it is is my time and I can do what I want with it. What if I arrive at the tournament venue and decide to do some last minute reading in another room before I sit down at my game (while my clock is running)?

  5. #5
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    I would say the game starts when white's clock is started. After this has happened I would say that play has begun and therefore the rules which specify "during play" would apply.

    The rule in this case is (I think) 12.2(a):

    12.2 a. During play the players are forbidden to make use of any notes, sources of information, advice, or analyse on another chessboard.

    If you accept these views then strictly speaking a player should not receive advice after the scheduled start time of a round unless it is known the round will be commencing late, or they know their game will be starting late due to perhaps a late finish in the previous round.

    Also strictly speaking you should not be reading a chess book after the scheduled start time of the round.
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  6. #6
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    The game has started and the coaching was occurring during the game. Of that, there is no doubt. I'd suggest you and we should all ensure this doesn't occur again.
    There was no ill-intent or untoward benefit gained.
    The parent challenging you, if that's what they did, needs a quick nutting in the goolies for being a pointy-head.
    Last edited by Basil; 31-07-2007 at 12:58 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Would be interested in what would occur if there was an official complaint made to the arbiter

  8. #8
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronD
    Would be interested in what would occur if there was an official complaint made to the arbiter
    That would depend on the arbiter as there is no specified penalty for this rule. In the situation Drug describes I think a warning would be sufficient as there was no intention to seek an unfair advantage and the last minute coaching was as a result of the pairings being posted quite close to the next round start time. However that is just c'est l'echecs, the coaching should have been forgone in this instance.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    12.2 a. During play the players are forbidden to make use of any notes, sources of information, advice, or analyse on another chessboard.
    Does the fide handbook define when the play starts? I understand the above rule, but your conclusion is based on the presumption that the play starts when the clock is started. If the play starts when you actually start playing (which means you at least enter the room) then the above rule does not apply.

    Something possibly related happened in the famous game #5 between Kramnik and Topalov which as we all remember Kramnik forfeited. He was in a separate room just a few meters away from the venue, and that was not considered as he started.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronD
    Would be interested in what would occur if there was an official complaint made to the arbiter
    He'd be told to sod off.
    No this is silly, the whole premise is silly and very badly written. I'm the senior officer here and I've not had a funny line yet so I'm stopping it.

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  11. #11
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    Also, is the child considered a "player" before he enters the playing area?

  12. #12
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I would say the game starts when white's clock is started. After this has happened I would say that play has begun and therefore the rules which specify "during play" would apply.

    The rule in this case is (I think) 12.2(a):

    12.2 a. During play the players are forbidden to make use of any notes, sources of information, advice, or analyse on another chessboard.

    If you accept these views then strictly speaking a player should not receive advice after the scheduled start time of a round unless it is known the round will be commencing late, or they know their game will be starting late due to perhaps a late finish in the previous round.

    Also strictly speaking you should not be reading a chess book after the scheduled start time of the round.
    That sounds right. It would certainly apply once the player has reached the official venue, as opposed to still on the bus after the start time. But in this case, the pep talk commenced before the start time, and ended just 20 sec after it. So while there might have been a violation, it would warrant only a warning.
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  13. #13
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    game should start once clock starts... otherwise...

    player A makes unusual move (1. b4)
    spectator notes unusual moves... leaves venue and informs Player B by phone
    Player B reserches the opening in car/other location
    Player B arrives to play his game

  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drug
    we got attacked by the parent of the opponent claiming that coaching during the game is not allowed. Can somebody clarify this situation?
    Others have started answering about when games begin etc, so I will answer this.

    First of all, by the laws of chess, the parent is regarded as a spectator in the game and therefore can make no official appeals whatsoever. Of course it isnt unusual if a spectator sees something 'illegal' during a game and informs the arbiter and lets the arbiter take care of it.

    The only people who can make official complaints are the two players. So the parent has no grounds to do what you claim has happened.

    My response would be, speak to the arbiter.

  15. #15
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    OK thread closed!

    Next topic please
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