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  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Playing on in a ridiculously hopeless position

    Does Article 12.1 come into play, "The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute," if a player is continuing a position against a strong opponent that so lost that a very weak club player would win 99% of the time.

    I just read the report on the Fiji Zonal in New Zealand Chess , which describes a game where a player played on and on against a strong IM and was mated by a string of underpromoted bishops on the last rank. The report said, "Resignation was about 50 moves overdue, so the point was well made." Next round, the loser again continued until he was mated. There is fighting spirit and there is just pure obstinacy.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  2. #2
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    No one has a right to tell someone when to resign, or to penealize them if they dont. I've played a lot of juniors who play on when the game is finished (Rook against king stuck on 8th rank with pawns locked togeather, Its their game and I have no problem with this.

  3. #3
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    It has happened to everyone. Sometimes there is some trick that the opponent is hoping for, between weak players it is often stalemate.

    In the Aust. major in Brisbane two years ago an opponent did this to me. He was winning (P up in a rook endgame) but misplayed the endgame and then was losing. In the end he was playing on in a pawnless K+Q v K endgame and, what's worse, taking a long time between moves. I was short of time (but increments applied at every move and so wasn't going to lose provided I didn't leave the table) and the game was the last one to finish in the hall (major and championship). I think he was hoping I would have to go to the toilet and he would be able to make a quick move and then I would lose on time.

    Anyway, I eventually won and although the arbiters were greatly inconvenienced, they did not intervene. One of the arbiters did comment to me the following day though that he considered my opponent was ill-mannered. Though the word "disrepute" and article 12.1 didn't come up.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronD
    No one has a right to tell someone when to resign, or to penealize them if they dont. I've played a lot of juniors who play on when the game is finished (Rook against king stuck on 8th rank with pawns locked togeather, Its their game and I have no problem with this.
    OK, it is one thing in a junior tournament or with fast time controls, quite another in an adults tourney with long time controls.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

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    The player you refer to is a young kid. Maybe nobody told him that he shouldn't play on in a lost position.
    For private coaching (IM, four times VIC champion) call or SMS 0417519733
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  6. #6
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    The player you refer to is a young kid. Maybe nobody told him that he shouldn't play on in a lost position.
    My opponent wasn't young at all.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster Spiny Norman's Avatar
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    In our club's current Fischer Random tournament, played at 15 minute time controls, I was playing against a junior. After some blunders in time trouble on both sides, we got to a position where I had K+Q+P vs K+Q (okay, not a hopeless position by a long shot) ... but this is where fate intervened ... the clock proved to be faulty and failed 3 times ... eventually this proved to be enough of a distraction, as I had just 40 seconds left on the clock ... I played the only losing move on the board, lost my queen and the game.

    So I reckon that at fast time controls, almost never resign. At normal rated-tournament time controls, I tend to resign fairly early on if I am up against a stronger player, but will play on until hopeless against weaker players IF I have time up on the clock, as I try to set traps for them.
    “As you perhaps know, I haven't always been a Christian. I didn't go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don't recommend Christianity.” -- C.S.Lewis

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    My opponent wasn't young at all.
    It was about post #1
    For private coaching (IM, four times VIC champion) call or SMS 0417519733
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  9. #9
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    The player you refer to is a young kid. Maybe nobody told him that he shouldn't play on in a lost position.
    I know who he is. He is also apparently autistic. But should a director tell him that it was bad manners to play on till mate against master-strength opposition in an international tournament? If so, what sanctions are available to a director if he is ignored?
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  10. #10
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    1. The time control in my game was 60+30 with over 30 minutes left each

    2. No director/official/arbiter/GrandMaster etc has the right to tell any player to resign in any circumstances!!
    Last edited by CameronD; 24-07-2007 at 04:08 PM.

  11. #11
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    I think the best punishment for players who lack the decency to resign when totally lost (eg several pieces down and zero compensation) is to beat them in some suitably amusing fashion and then smash them off the board in seventeen moves the next time that you play them.

    As an arbiter I don't like the idea of sanctioning a player for playing on in a lost position. After all the defined object of the game is to checkmate, and resigning is a social nicety that no-one should be obliged to agree with. But if they play on needlessly slowly and vexatiously, especially with increments, I would give them a warning under 12.1.

    I quite strongly dislike it when players play on forever in dead lost positions then pathetically resign the move before they are going to be checkmated, just to avoid being mated. If you must play on in a dead lost position then let the other person finish you off. But again I do not see this as an arbiting matter.

  12. #12
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I quite strongly dislike it when players play on forever in dead lost positions then pathetically resign the move before they are going to be checkmated, just to avoid being mated. If you must play on in a dead lost position then let the other person finish you off. But again I do not see this as an arbiting matter.
    This is exactly what my opponent did resigning at move 92 with mate in 1.

    My opponent (black) played on 15 moves from the following position

    FEN Viewer


    Taking around 3 minutes per move. The moves were...

    77... Kb3 78.Rb8+ Kc4 79.h8=Q Kd3 80.Qd8+ Rd4 81.Qxg5 Kc2 82.Qc5+ Kd3 83.Rb3+ Ke4 84.Rb4 Rxb4 85.Qxb4+ Kf3 86.Qc3+ Ke4 87.Kxf2 Kd5 88.Kf3 Ke6 89.Ke4 Kd7 90.Ke5 Ke7 91.Qc7+ Kf8 92.Kf6 {resigns} 1-0

    I should have played 86.Qd4 which would have saved a couple of moves.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I think the best punishment for players who lack the decency to resign when totally lost (eg several pieces down and zero compensation) is to beat them in some suitably amusing fashion and then smash them off the board in seventeen moves the next time that you play them.
    Well, in the case in hand, the amusing win was exactly what the IM did. I've forced someone into a mate in the corner where the only mating pieces were three Bs. The second part should be done whether they resign decently or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    As an arbiter I don't like the idea of sanctioning a player for playing on in a lost position. After all the defined object of the game is to checkmate, and resigning is a social nicety that no-one should be obliged to agree with. But if they play on needlessly slowly and vexatiously, especially with increments, I would give them a warning under 12.1.
    Yeah, in a short game, it is not such a problem, but needlessly dragging out the round, and possibly delaying the start of the next, deserves some warning.
    “The history of the 20th century is full of examples of countries that set out to redistribute wealth and ended up redistributing poverty.”
    “There’s no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over others is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.”—Thomas Sowell

  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Does Article 12.1 come into play, "The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute," if a player is continuing a position against a strong opponent that so lost that a very weak club player would win 99% of the time.
    I think 12.1 is more likely to be applied, or have a chance of being applied, when a player is only trying to win on time in a dead drawn ending. I mean something like R v R and there are no swindle chances.

    Any player has the right to play on in a dead lost ending. While it can be frustrating for all to see someone playing on when they clearly should be resigning, it is not for the arbiters to intervene.

    By the way, I think players flogging dead drawn endings when increments apply is a worse 'crime' than a person not resigning when dead lost. At least with the dead lost position, it will finish soon enough. Same cant be said for the dead drawn position going around and around

  15. #15
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    I think 12.1 is more likely to be applied, or have a chance of being applied, when a player is only trying to win on time in a dead drawn ending. I mean something like R v R and there are no swindle chances.

    Any player has the right to play on in a dead lost ending. While it can be frustrating for all to see someone playing on when they clearly should be resigning, it is not for the arbiters to intervene.
    Do you remember the game I was talking about? I can't remember if you stayed back that night or not. My opponent was dead lost and could only have been hoping for a stalemate or draw on time. Unlike me he still had a bit of time on his clock and seemed intent to use it all up - "thinking" for around 3 minutes per move even when into a K+Q v K position.

    The arbiters needed to do the draw for the following day and so was delayed even longer than me.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

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