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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    man is so gullible and maleable.................remember the ice age scare in the 1970s?!
    If I remember correctly it was also due to CO2, but for some different reasons
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel
    Sure. The validity of scientific theories is established through peer-reviewed research, not public opinion.
    Excellent. That was the ball game in my post. Now on to my dribble ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel
    I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say.
    I suffer a propensity for dribbling. I also get excited on matters when the great unwashed start marching! My dribble, which certainly wasn't succinct (it rarely is - DJ is the man for succinctness), attempted to drive home the point that not only was the reverse true (alarmists also being unqualified), but that the casual causeways of misinformation (water cooler, dinner table and commercial 6 o'clock news) are flooding the minds of the uninitiated.

    Situation entirely normal. Everybody carry on.
    Last edited by Basil; 13-07-2007 at 09:42 PM.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    man is so gullible and maleable.................remember the ice age scare in the 1970s?!
    Yeah, including by some of the same people who are now pushing global warming alarmism! This includes Stephen Schneider: Greenhouse superstar, who admitted:

    “To capture the public imagination, we have to offer up some scary scenarios, make simplified dramatic statements and little mention of any doubts one might have. Each of us has to decide the right balance between being effective, and being honest.” [interview for Discover magazine, Oct 1989)

    30 years ago, he was trying to scare us about the looming ice age! Yet the ABC crowd deferred to him several times.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 14-07-2007 at 12:30 AM.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel
    If a debate is scientific (amongst scientists on a scientific topic), then an audience of laypeople is unqualified to judge the debate.
    Right, so we sheeple should just accept the opinion of the Anointed, and pay the carbon taxes and live in caves. Likewise, we need to ignore the jetsetting of the same Anointed as they tell us to cut down on cars, and just believe their forecasts of the temperature of the next 100 years when they can't forecast next week's temperature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel
    Sure. The validity of scientific theories is established through peer-reviewed research, not public opinion.
    Depends who the peers are. I've pointed out before that peer research is over-rated. Robert Higgs, a scientist with many years experience as a researcher, university professor and peer reviewer, had this to say in Peer review, publication in top journals, scientific consensus, and so forth (emphasis added):

    ‘Peer review, on which lay people place great weight, varies from important, where the editors and the referees are competent and responsible, to a complete farce, where they are not. As a rule, not surprisingly, the process operates somewhere in the middle, being more than a joke but less than the nearly flawless system of Olympian scrutiny that outsiders imagine it to be. Any journal editor who desires, for whatever reason, to knock down a submission can easily do so by choosing referees he knows full well will knock it down; likewise, he can easily obtain favorable referee reports. As I have always counseled young people whose work was rejected, seemingly on improper or insufficient grounds, the system is a crap shoot.

    ‘Personal vendettas, ideological conflicts, professional jealousies, methodological disagreements, sheer self-promotion and a great deal of plain incompetence and irresponsibility are no strangers to the scientific world; indeed, that world is rife with these all-too-human attributes. In no event can peer review ensure that research is correct in its procedures or its conclusions. The history of every science is a chronicle of one mistake after another. In some sciences these mistakes are largely weeded out in the course of time; in others they persist for extended periods; and in some sciences, such as economics, actual scientific retrogression may continue for generations under the misguided belief that it is really progress.

    ’At any given time, consensus may exist about all sorts of matters in a particular science. In retrospect, however, that consensus is often seen to have been mistaken.’
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I strongly agreed with Michael Duffy's point in his first soundbite. Any polemicist filmmaker who is not themselves a specialist could have been made to look dodgy in pretty much the same way — some more than others but the same treatment applied to the presentations of an Al Gore or a Michael Moore would yield very similar results. What it might not yield would be discussion following it in which strong arguments would be made that the filmmaker was not merely dodgy but also generally point-blank wrong.
    True enough. It wouldn't be hard for me, as an expert in infrared spectroscopy, to make Gore look silly by asking him a simple question about IR absorption. Moore is just a fat slob making millions by pretending to be an ordinary working class guy, lying about what a paradise Saddam's Iraq and Castro's Cuba are/were.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    Right, so we sheeple should just accept the opinion of the Anointed, and pay the carbon taxes and live in caves. Likewise, we need to ignore the jetsetting of the same Anointed as they tell us to cut down on cars, and just believe their forecasts of the temperature of the next 100 years when they can't forecast next week's temperature.
    No one can be an expert on every subject, so sometimes we necessarily have to defer to a credible authority. When geodesists say that the diameter of the earth is 12,756.274 kilometres [1], or chemists say that the rat LD50 for caffeine is 192 mg/kg [2], I trust them, even though I don't have the expertise to verify their results. Of course, if you wish to be more proactive, you could invest the necessary time and effort to become an expert yourself, or you could run in the next election with the intent of affecting policy making decisions. Lesser mortals, like me, will just have to content themselves with deferring to an authority and giving their preference to a particular candidate at the next election. Pooh-poohing the "Anointed" might be cathartic, but doesn't really solve any problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    [P]eer research is over-rated.
    I'm aware that the peer-review process has problems, but it does work (albeit imperfectly). So until it's either improved or replaced by a superior process, we just have to acknowledge the problems and do the best we can.

    [1] http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...06/1971850.htm
    [2] http://www.physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/CA/caffeine.html

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel
    No one can be an expert on every subject, so sometimes we necessarily have to defer to a credible authority.
    What experts? Climatologists like Richard Lindzen of MIT or paleontologists like Flummery and politicians like alGore?

    Actually, the behaviour of the global warming alarmists has done as much to turn me off their cause as the skeptics. In particular, when one side shouts "the debate is over", and even proposes Nuremberg-like trials for their opponents, it is almost always because they fear real debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel
    When geodesists say that the diameter of the earth is 12,756.274 kilometres [1], or chemists say that the rat LD50 for caffeine is 192 mg/kg [2], I trust them,
    I wouldn't trust a chemist. I am a Ph.D. chemist and this is not in my purview.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel
    Pooh-poohing the "Anointed" might be cathartic, but doesn't really solve any problems.
    It is good to show where they are coming from, those who wish to run our lives (the term comes from the economist and author Dr Thomas Sowell, in his excellent book The Vision of the Anointed: Self-Congratulation as a Basis for Social Policy). Yet no one knows enough to predict the temperature next Sunday, let alone next century.

    Nor are have most of these "experts" weighed up the costs of their burdens on us (not on themselves of course). Fact is, wealth is a better antidote to environmental problems than impoverishing us as many greenies would like:

    During the first decade of the 20th century more than 8,000 Americans died in hurricanes. During the last ten years there have been only 100 hurricane-related deaths. How does one explain this decline despite a doubling of the population? “Improvements in communications, transportation, weather tracking, emergency management, rescue operations, and relief capabilities have made it possible to reduce dramatically the human price exacted by even the worst hurricanes in the most populated areas. Purposeful private and governmental actions,” Eberstadt continues [ref.], “can now substantially cut the toll from other natural disasters as well, even in the poorest nations.” [The Failures and Fallacies of Foreign Aid]

    Another example is the Netherlands' way of coping with high sea levels relative to the land: dykes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguel
    I'm aware that the peer-review process has problems, but it does work (albeit imperfectly). So until it's either improved or replaced by a superior process, we just have to acknowledge the problems and do the best we can.
    Not when one of the problems is that it can protect an entrenched paradigm from criticisms, as pointed out. Global warming alarmism is a paradigm, and much research money depends on supporting this.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    What experts? Climatologists like Richard Lindzen of MIT or paleontologists like Flummery and politicians like alGore?
    How about a report on the general position of the science, produced by a collection of scientists, such as produced by the IPCC?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    How about a report on the general position of the science, produced by a collection of scientists, such as produced by the IPCC?
    That was a heavy politicized document produced under the auspices of the grossly corrupt thugocracy called the UN, and many of the scientists involved have repudiated it. Hurricane expert Christopher Landsea resigned, saying that he regarded the process "as both being motivated by pre-conceived agendas and being scientifically unsound" when it came to a link of AGW to hurricances. Also, somehow the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice were decreed never to have happened. See also:

    IPCC report criticized by one of its lead authors:
    Politics, not science, drives the United Nations' work on climate change, warns Dr Richard Lindzen, one of the world's leading atmospheric physicists
    1 June 2001
    .

    "Scientists are human beings," Lindzen concluded, "subject to normal instincts and weaknesses." They respond to incentives just like everyone else. "Current government funding creates incentives to behave poorly by maintaining the relevance of the subject," he said, noting that on some issues financial support for science depends on "alarming the world."
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 14-07-2007 at 10:54 AM.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

  10. #25
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    Jono, do you believe the universe is 6,000 years old?
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  11. #26
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    Boris, my views are amply clear in my book Refuting Compromise, or failing that, the articles I've written listed in my bio.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

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  12. #27
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    I'll take this quote from that linka s my answer:
    In 2006, he co-authored 15 Reasons to Take Genesis as History with Don Batten, as a concise reference guide for Christians, including pastors and theologians, why Genesis can be trusted as real history of Creation about 6000 years ago and a global Flood.
    The reason I asked is because I was going to point out that the Earth has been warming and cooling since its inception some 4 billion years ago quite independently of human activity, but I suppose you don't belive any of that anyway.
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  13. #28
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    Come to think of it, do your beliefs make room for any climate change whatsoever?
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    Excellent. That was the ball game in my post. Now on to my dribble ...


    I suffer a propensity for dribbling. I also get excited on matters when the great unwashed start marching! My dribble, which certainly wasn't succinct (it rarely is - DJ is the man for succinctness), attempted to drive home the point that not only was the reverse true (alarmists also being unqualified), but that the casual causeways of misinformation (water cooler, dinner table and commercial 6 o'clock news) are flooding the minds of the uninitiated.

    Situation entirely normal. Everybody carry on.
    (water cooler, dinner table and commercial 6 o'clock news) Gunner you neglected to add to this list the biased left wing views of the ABC, Channel 9 may well be morally bankrupt but in it's own way the ABC is little better, I guess their one redeeming feature is consistency.
    As far as the Swindle is concerned I'm yet to be convinced by either side, though I must admit I'm leaning slightly toward the argument presented by Martin Durkin and his intrepid little band.
    Jon.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by santalum
    (water cooler, dinner table and commercial 6 o'clock news) Gunner you neglected to add to this list the biased left wing views of the ABC, Channel 9 may well be morally bankrupt but in its own way the ABC is little better, I guess their one redeeming feature is consistency.
    A major difference is that taxpayers are not forced to fund Channel 9.

    Quote Originally Posted by santalum
    As far as the Swindle is concerned I'm yet to be convinced by either side, though I must admit I'm leaning slightly toward the argument presented by Martin Durkin and his intrepid little band.
    If nothing else, it is a refreshing change from the constant unchallenged alarmism.
    “If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.” — Abba Eban on the UN general assembly

    “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” — Obi-Wan Kenobi on the UN kakistocracy

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