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  1. #4591
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    I forgot to call out Lomborg's trademark cherry-picking. He highlights the worst-case scenarios, with no mention of the best alternatives. The shopping bag kindest to the environment when factoring in life-cycle effects (after PET bags) is the ubiquitous green bag, as long as it's used more than 23 times, according to Peter Allan, Principal Consultant at Hyder Consulting and author of numerous studies for the government on the impact of plastic bags, including reports advising which system would be kindest to the environment:

    Overall, a reusable bag is a better option for the environment than bags with between one and three typical uses. "Given the popularity of the green bags, we needed to test whether reusable was better for the environment and this was comprehensively proven – but only so long as you use it repeatedly over a long period," says Allan.
    A green bag has to be used more than 23 times before it becomes a better option than single-use bags.
    Of the range of reusable bag types tested, the most environmentally-friendly option was the 100% recycled content PET reusable bag, closely followed by the reusable green bag.
    Calico bags aren't recommended, because of the amount of water used to make them.

    https://www.choice.com.au/shopping/e...-shopping-bags
    But PET is a type of plastic too.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  2. #4592
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blunderbuss View Post
    Brendan O’Neill is just an Internet troll who’s views on any subject can be safely ignored: https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/st...64399083859970

    Attachment 3859

    Unable to deal with her potent arguments, people are resorting to lazy, personal attacks.
    Big deal. Hitler changed the course of history too. But keep listening to a child if you want to.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  3. #4593
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    No he's not. He thinks AGW is real and a problem. He just thinks that the usual government-proposed solutions are misguided, and he proposed ideas that will help far more people while costing far less.
    Actually, he mis-represents the extent of the problem. Cites studies and mis-represents them. See here. Classic denialist.

    The opposite of consensus.
    meep meep

  4. #4594
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham View Post
    23 uses seems ambitious. I normally use reusable bags available from supermarkets here for around 15 cents. But from time to time a convenient opportunity to shop at a supermarket comes up unexpectedly and I will have to buy more such bags. As a result I have a stockpile of about 20 of the things. I doubt that on average I would end up using them 23 times each.
    Those 15c bags are recycled PET - eight uses equal the climate change impact of the old single-use bag, but 84 uses necessary to have same cumulative environmental impact (water use, energy use, etc.).
    The 99c green bag is woven polypropylene at five and 45 uses respectively, based on the Danish study cited by Lomborg. Woolies will give you a free replacement when they wear out.

    I've got a dozen or so green bags round the place, which we use for carrying all sorts of stuff around, as well as shopping. We wear them out with long use.

  5. #4595
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    But PET is a type of plastic too.
    Of course, but recycled plastic.

  6. #4596
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray View Post
    Those 15c bags are recycled PET - eight uses equal the climate change impact of the old single-use bag, but 84 uses necessary to have same cumulative environmental impact (water use, energy use, etc.).
    Those are pretty tough, and based on my experience they'll last a lot longer than that. I just wish the supermarkets made it easier to use 'proper' bags (backpacks, etc).

  7. #4597
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Big deal. Hitler changed the course of history too. But keep listening to a child if you want to.
    Probably better than listening to Brendan O'Neill. Pretty much all of his output I've seen boils down to the idea that his contrarian trolling is special because he claims to be an atheist.

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