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  1. #1
    CC International Master Bereaved's Avatar
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    What constitutes an illegal move in blitz?

    Hello everyone,


    The FIDE article relating to Blitz says:
    C. Blitz

    C1.

    A `blitz` game is one where all the moves must be made in a fixed time of less than 15 minutes for each player; or the allotted time + 60 times any increment is less than 15 minutes.

    C2.

    Play shall be governed by the Rapidplay Laws as in Appendix B except where they are overridden by the following Laws of Blitz. The Articles 10.2 and B6 do not apply.

    C3.

    An illegal move is completed once the opponent`s clock has been started. The opponent is entitled to claim a win before he has made his own move.(my emphasis) However, if the opponent cannot checkmate the player`s king by any possible series of legal moves with the most unskilled counterplay, then the claimant is entitled to claim a draw before he has made his own move. Once the opponent has made his own move, an illegal move cannot be corrected
    What constitutes an illegal move? is it just leaving the king in check? or is the definition meant to encompass more broadly any violation of the laws of chess?

    the reason I ask is because of the following

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Lycett
    Finishing third on 7 was Malcolm who had suffered another loss in the sixth
    round to Sadedin Redzepagic, despite claiming a win for "illegal move".
    Sadedin had, (quite legally), played knight on e3 x bishop on g2. When
    removing the bishop Sadedin also picked up his knight and took both pieces
    off the board, then pressed his clock. Malcolm rightly complained and
    Sadedin replaced the knight, (with the wrong coloured knight). Malcolm
    again complained and Sadedin finally replaced the knight correctly. Malcolm
    at this stage was claiming a win saying Sadedin had made an illegal move in
    removing both pieces.

    The arbiter, (me), denied Malcolm's claim based on the fact that Sadedin's
    move was legal, the aftermath was simply "dislodging the pieces". The same
    as if he knocked over a piece in making his move, which happens a lot in
    lightning time scrambles. Under these circumstances Malcolm has every right
    to press his clock and tell his opponent to set the pieces correctly on his
    own time, but it is not an illegal move.
    ** The rule relates to "illegal move", not "illegal position".
    Although the result will stand regardless, I would be interested, (for
    possible future disputes), if anyone thinks I was wrong, and why.
    This was surely a circumstance of an illegal move? After all, I have never heard of another example of a player completing their move and two pieces leaving the board after a capture?

    Would appreciate any feedback anyone can provide

    Take care and God Bless, Macavity

    PS Sadedin had more than a minute and a half more than I did, and was not in desperate time trouble yet

  2. #2
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    His original move of capturing the bishop and removing it and his own piece (the knight) from the board was clearly an illegal move the moment he stopped his clock. Up until stopping his clock he could have corrected it.

    It has nothing to do with illegal position. As part of his move he illegally removed his own knight from the board and pressed the clock.

    End of story. His move was illegal.

    Also his subsequent replacement of the wrong coloured Knight was also illegal.

    The arbiter's decision was simply wrong.
    Last edited by Bill Gletsos; 08-07-2007 at 01:04 PM.
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  3. #3
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Rather unusual case.

    I think there's a big difference between

    * making a move
    * knocking a piece off the board accidentally
    * pressing the clock

    and

    * making a move
    * removing both pieces from the board by controlled hand action as if this was the deliberate outcome of a move
    * pressing the clock

    If it's the latter (which it sounds like it is), it's an illegal move in my view.

    For it to even be arguably a legal move followed by a dislodgement (as was ruled) then the knight must have been released on the square g2 before removal. Did this occur? If not then there is no way one can correctly say that a legal move was completed at any stage.

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macavity
    What constitutes an illegal move? is it just leaving the king in check? or is the definition meant to encompass more broadly any violation of the laws of chess?
    Clearly more than just leaving the king in check, anyway:

    7.4a: If during a game it is found that an illegal move, including failing to meet the requirements of the promotion of a pawn or capturing the opponent’s king, has been completed, the position immediately before the irregularity shall be reinstated.

    So leaving a pawn unpromoted is explicitly called an illegal move, so an opponent can claim under Blitz C3. To return to the situation:

    3.1: If a piece moves to a square occupied by an opponent's piece the latter is captured and removed from the chessboard as part of the same move.

    So removing one's own piece is illegal, so you were entitled to claim the win, and the arbiter was mistaken to disallow the claim.

  5. #5
    CC FIDE Master Lekko's Avatar
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    The arbiter, (me), denied Malcolm's claim based on the fact that Sadedin's
    move was legal, the aftermath was simply "dislodging the pieces". The same
    as if he knocked over a piece in making his move, which happens a lot in
    lightning time scrambles. Under these circumstances Malcolm has every right
    to press his clock and tell his opponent to set the pieces correctly on his
    own time, but it is not an illegal move.
    ** The rule relates to "illegal move", not "illegal position".
    Although the result will stand regardless, I would be interested, (for
    possible future disputes), if anyone thinks I was wrong, and why.
    Same issue arrised at MCC between myself and Michael Baron. I placed Michael in check, he proceeded to place me in check, I moved out of check (attacking his piece). His arguement was that because he was in check, I had to take his king or call illegal, but I argued that it's not checkers and I'm not forced to take anything unless I'm in check and I CAN'T move my king. We agreed upon a draw due to my time trouble (18 seconds left on the clock and no clear mate) but I was sure that the game should continue.

    Am I correct? Does the game continue?

  6. #6
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartBreak Kid
    Same issue arrised at MCC between myself and Michael Baron. I placed Michael in check, he proceeded to place me in check, I moved out of check (attacking his piece). His arguement was that because he was in check, I had to take his king or call illegal, but I argued that it's not checkers and I'm not forced to take anything unless I'm in check and I CAN'T move my king. We agreed upon a draw due to my time trouble (18 seconds left on the clock and no clear mate) but I was sure that the game should continue.

    Am I correct? Does the game continue?
    You are correct, the game should have continued.

    Baron's claim that you had to take his king or call illegal move is simply rubbish.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
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  7. #7
    CC FIDE Master Lekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    You are correct, the game should have continued.

    Baron's claim that you had to take his king or call illegal move is simply rubbish.
    As I was explaining why I thought the game wasn't over, his confidence in his claim slowly deteriorated until it got to the point where he wasn't sure anymore and was happy with a draw. I only took the draw though because he had 2 minutes left and I had a matter of seconds with no clear mate.

    He had a lot going through his head considering something happened that made him upset prior to the blitz tournament starting, so I'm sure it was just a mix up for him.

  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartBreak Kid
    As I was explaining why I thought the game wasn't over, his confidence in his claim slowly deteriorated until it got to the point where he wasn't sure anymore and was happy with a draw. I only took the draw though because he had 2 minutes left and I had a matter of seconds with no clear mate.

    He had a lot going through his head considering something happened that made him upset prior to the blitz tournament starting, so I'm sure it was just a mix up for him.
    Ok, good - now we know the rules. If i knew i would play on. I think Frank would beat me there...18 sec was enough time in that position. Thefore, i am sorry that the game did continue. Nothing major happened prior to blitz - just a clash between intelligentsia and working class
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  9. #9
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Baron's claim that you had to take his king or call illegal move is simply rubbish.
    And furthermore, had HBK taken the king, MB would have been entitled to claim a win as king-capture is an illegal move.

  10. #10
    CC FIDE Master Lekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    And furthermore, had HBK taken the king, MB would have been entitled to claim a win as king-capture is an illegal move.
    In MCC blitz, capturing the king is legal. This has been made clear to participants in the tournament time and time again by Carl.

  11. #11
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartBreak Kid
    In MCC blitz, capturing the king is legal. This has been made clear to participants in the tournament time and time again by Carl.
    MCC is clearly not playing by FIDE rules then.

    1.2 The objective of each player is to place the opponent’s king ‘under attack’ in such a way that the opponent has no legal move. The player who achieves this goal is said to have ‘checkmated’ the opponent’s king and to have won the game. Leaving one’s own king under attack, exposing one’s own king to attack and also ’capturing’ the opponent’s king are not allowed. (my bolding) The opponent whose king has been checkmated has lost the game.
    As capturing the king is illegal and in blitz illegal moves lose, capturing the king in blitz loses the game.

    The correct procedure is to stop the clocks and point out that the king is still in check.

  12. #12
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeartBreak Kid
    In MCC blitz, capturing the king is legal. This has been made clear to participants in the tournament time and time again by Carl.
    OK, I didn't know that.

    I don't have any problem with organisers deciding to waive the rule against king-capture for their tournaments, but:

    (i) they should clearly state to all entrants that normally king-capture is banned, so that those entrants are not confused when they play in other events.

    (ii) sometimes allowing king-capture can lead to problems. For instance if someone takes the king with a queen and there is then a dispute about whether the queen slipped off a diagonal in so doing. These can be difficult to resolve, since the move destroys the evidence.

  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macavity
    Hello everyone,


    The FIDE article relating to Blitz says:


    What constitutes an illegal move? is it just leaving the king in check? or is the definition meant to encompass more broadly any violation of the laws of chess?

    the reason I ask is because of the following



    This was surely a circumstance of an illegal move? After all, I have never heard of another example of a player completing their move and two pieces leaving the board after a capture?
    Would appreciate any feedback anyone can provide

    Take care and God Bless, Macavity

    PS Sadedin had more than a minute and a half more than I did, and was not in desperate time trouble yet
    It happened in the Sydney Easter Cup about eight years ago, that is 60min guillotine (rapidplay according to BillG). It happened in the last 5 minutes of the game (for Agulto at least who came back from lunch late) after Agulto had knocked the board and a few pieces hit the floor. His opposition, Gety(?) from Germany, helped set up the board and missed his own bishop on the floor. Then when a promotion was made Geti kept his other bishop suspended in his hand coz that what was he was going to capture with.

    The arbitaring committee comprising Bob Keast, Fred Flatow and another (but against my comments and advice - who am I?) a few moves down the track put both bishops back on the board upon the witness of only one person. I thought this most unfair when the moves were not recorded.

    A few years later after my consistent whinging Bill came out and stated as was a rapid play game it should have been declared a draw. I finally felt justified.

    You can't put two pieces back on the board on the word of one spectator.

  14. #14
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    It happened in the Sydney Easter Cup about eight years ago, that is 60min guillotine (rapidplay according to BillG). It happened in the last 5 minutes of the game (for Agulto at least who came back from lunch late) after Agulto had knocked the board and a few pieces hit the floor. His opposition, Gety(?) from Germany, helped set up the board and missed his own bishop on the floor. Then when a promotion was made Geti kept his other bishop suspended in his hand coz that what was he was going to capture with.

    The arbitaring committee comprising Bob Keast, Fred Flatow and another (but against my comments and advice - who am I?) a few moves down the track put both bishops back on the board upon the witness of only one person. I thought this most unfair when the moves were not recorded.

    A few years later after my consistent whinging Bill came out and stated as was a rapid play game it should have been declared a draw. I finally felt justified.
    I never said it should be declared a draw.
    You originally described the situation here.
    My response was here.
    You asked a follow up question that I answered here.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
    Mos Eisley spaceport The toolbox. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

  15. #15
    CC Grandmaster Desmond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    It happened in the Sydney Easter Cup about eight years ago,
    You're not one to let things go, are you
    So what's your excuse? To run like the devil's chasing you.

    See you in another life, brotha.

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