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  1. #46
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Another illustration of the Deletang triangles method, which seems preferable to learn:

    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

  2. #47
    CC Grandmaster Elliott Renzies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Another illustration of the Deletang triangles method, which seems preferable to learn:

    [Ed. Watch video in original post]
    Thanks for sharing Capablanca-Fan!

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron View Post
    I never ever had to mate with B+N. But my king was mated twice: By Caoili and by Rujevic.
    Michael, I assume that if the situation occurred in your games you would know how to do it. I can't imagine any junior who reached Master level in the USSR not being able to know how to check-mate with Bishop and Knight versus King!

    BTW I am not sure if you achieved the FM title in the USSR or here, however, I am sure that when you arrived in Australia you were already a very strong player!
    Last edited by Elliott Renzies; 14-03-2015 at 06:50 AM.
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  3. #48
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    Thanks for sharing Capablanca-Fan!
    Welcome!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    Michael, I assume that if the situation occurred in your games you would know how to do it. I can't imagine any junior who reached Master level in the USSR not being able to know how to check-mate with Bishop and Knight versus King!
    Don't count on it. I can't speak for MB of course, but Vladimir Epishin, born in Leningrad in 1965 and became a GM in 1990, both in Soviet times, failed miserably against Robert Kempinski in 2001. The then Women's World Champion, Anna Ushenina, also didn't quite understand the Philidor method, and let Olga Girya off the hook in an important game in 2013. She was born in 1985, so was a child when the Evil Empire broke up.

    The Soviets erred by teaching the difficult Philidor method, which even strong players have evidently mishandled, rather than the more straightforward Deletang method.
    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

  4. #49
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Welcome!


    Don't count on it. I can't speak for MB of course, but Vladimir Epishin, born in Leningrad in 1965 and became a GM in 1990, both in Soviet times, failed miserably against Robert Kempinski in 2001. The then Women's World Champion, Anna Ushenina, also didn't quite understand the Philidor method, and let Olga Girya off the hook in an important game in 2013. She was born in 1985, so was a child when the Evil Empire broke up.

    The Soviets erred by teaching the difficult Philidor method, which even strong players have evidently mishandled, rather than the more straightforward Deletang method.
    As LLoyd Fell knight & bishop mate expert would rave - young kids today know nothing
    Zionism is racism as defined by the UN, Israel by every dirty means available steals land and water, kill Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians, and operates an apartheid system to drive more Palestinians off their land

  5. #50
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    A few decades ago in the "Chess in Australia" there was an article on how to mate with N+B if you didn't know where the king was (i.e by playing kriegspiel)

    The technique was to find the king with checks, then making successively smaller cordons
    (Like trapping the king in a box with the queen.)

  6. #51
    CC Grandmaster Elliott Renzies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Welcome!


    Don't count on it. I can't speak for MB of course, but Vladimir Epishin, born in Leningrad in 1965 and became a GM in 1990, both in Soviet times, failed miserably against Robert Kempinski in 2001. The then Women's World Champion, Anna Ushenina, also didn't quite understand the Philidor method, and let Olga Girya off the hook in an important game in 2013. She was born in 1985, so was a child when the Evil Empire broke up.

    The Soviets erred by teaching the difficult Philidor method, which even strong players have evidently mishandled, rather than the more straightforward Deletang method.
    Interesting (and enlightening) information. I was going along the common sayings of the "every Russian school boy knows ..." or "in every Russian village you will find master strength players" type.
    I assumed that knowledge of stratagems or methods to achieve certain goals such as the B+N vs lone King theme, was sort of common knowledge amongst the products of the Soviet Chess system. Obviously I was wrong!

    BTW my knowledge of the particular position was to create a Kg5, Nc3, Be3 cordon around the King on e5, restrict him to the edge of the board and then try to force him to the right corner (a1 or h8 in this case) with that W method. Sometimes I managed to do it but never under 50 moves! Under 100 more likely!
    Last edited by Elliott Renzies; 14-03-2015 at 07:23 PM.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    Sometimes I managed to do it but never under 50 moves! Under 100 more likely!
    Yes, its a tough ending! In the bad old days, beginners books often included this ending. I wonder why many people gave up chess as being too hard, as a result.

  8. #53
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    Interesting (and enlightening) information. I was going along the common sayings of the "every Russian school boy knows ..." or "in every Russian village you will find master strength players" type.
    I assumed that knowledge of stratagems or methods to achieve certain goals such as the B+N vs lone King theme, was sort of common knowledge amongst the products of the Soviet Chess system. Obviously I was wrong!
    Yes, GM Alex Yermolinsky said that he knew lots of bad players, and most of them were in his hometown of the USSR. My own experience of Soviet Chess is limited to Sukhumi in Abkhazia, then a reluctant part of Soviet Georgia. There were a couple of master-strength players, but the next group down were wild attackers rather than technicians. However, chess boards could be seen almost everywhere, even on the beach (it is on the northern coast of the Black Sea). Also, the strong Russian emigrés I've known seem to have good positional understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    BTW my knowledge of the particular position was to create a Kg5, Nc3, Be3 cordon around the King on e5, restrict him to the edge of the board and then try to force him to the right corner (a1 or h8 in this case) with that W method. Sometimes I managed to do it but never under 50 moves! Under 100 more likely!
    Well, that video I posted might help. Cameron D said he found that the Deletang ‘Triangles’ method almost foolproof against his computer.
    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

  9. #54
    CC Grandmaster Elliott Renzies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Well, that video I posted might help...
    It definitely does. I have just started studying it and I find it most interesting and helpful! I was successful in 2 times out of ten (without taking moves back) so far.
    I used the "take back" method not in order to achieve the mate but to understand where I went wrong previously! Thanks again!

    Quote Originally Posted by FM Bill
    Yes, its a tough ending! In the bad old days, beginners books often included this ending. I wonder why many people gave up chess as being too hard, as a result.
    I remember those beginners books' approach to (i) understand (ii) solve the K+B+N vs K mate!
    They did not help much, since most of the stuff they contained was based on "he goes here, you go there" type of "analysis"!
    They weren't bad in other aspects though!
    The only book containing some sort of a systematic approach was Lasker's Manual of Chess which introduced the cordon ideas!
    What's your opinion about the Deletang Triangles method suggested by Capablanca - Fan Bill?
    Last edited by Elliott Renzies; 16-03-2015 at 11:17 AM.
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  10. #55
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    The hardest part is to mate within 50 moves. It allows 2-3 inaccuracies only
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    What's your opinion about the Deletang Triangles method suggested by Capablanca - Fan Bill?
    I like the idea, it seems quite practical. Having said that, I know the old method but not the triangles method.

    Max Fuller said he could mate with B+N with 1 minute on the clock (no increment).

  12. #57
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    This endgame was reached in the recent Isle of Man Open by the world's top female player in:

    Elisabeth Paehtz vs Yifan Hou
    Isle of Man Open (2016) · Sicilian Defense: O'Kelly Variation. Venice System (B28) · 0-1

    Here is a video by IM Sagar Shah explaining this checkmate. Not as useful as the Deletang triangles method, just going through the Philodor W method. It explains a importand point to this method: controlling the only escape square with the N and leaving the others to the B. There is also a useful hint the defender of such endgames: Hou controlled the opposite corner square early on, so Päetz might have held on longer by trying to run away rather than trying to stay in the corner against someone who knew the Philidor.

    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 11-10-2016 at 02:45 AM.
    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

  13. #58
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    “The best part of adopting conservatism after years of leftism, by the way, is how much easier life becomes. If you’re a conservative, facts are generally all you need to establish a case or mount an argument. If you’re a leftist, however, you always have to find a way around the facts, which is why combative lefties always sound like lawyers knowingly representing a guilty client.”—Tim Blair

  14. #59
    CC Grandmaster Elliott Renzies's Avatar
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    That's very nice! Apart from Stefanova's game last night the only other one real tournament case of K+B+N win vs the lone K
    that I can refer to was the famous Lloyd Fell victory versus Guy West!

    Famous if not for the fine victory itself, definitely for the late Lloyd's victorious (as well as loud) bragging
    after the end of the game!

    Guy could give us more details about that game!
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elliott Renzies View Post
    That's very nice! Apart from Stefanova's game last night the only other one real tournament case of K+B+N win vs the lone K
    that I can refer to was the famous Lloyd Fell victory versus Guy West!

    Famous if not for the fine victory itself, definitely for the late Lloyd's victorious (as well as loud) bragging
    after the end of the game!

    Guy could give us more details about that game!
    Unfortunately I have been on the receiving end of King vs. King+Bishop+Knight twice - and both times - my opponents mated me competently .
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