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Thread: Divorce

  1. #1
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    Divorce

    We have three good family family friends who are on the cusp of separating. Why? We have lots more family family friends who, like us, are rock solid. Why? to paraphase Tolstoy, "All happy families are happy in the same way. All unhappy families are unhappy in there own way."

    Because of what they have seen recently, our children have interpreted the usual/normal odd snit or brickering between their parents as evidence that their whole world is about to disintergrate. I wonder if the fequent exposure of society to divorce, provides the excuse of normalcy. Thus, removing societal pressure to make it work, and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

    I think our society has forgotten/lost the ethos behind marriage - the rearing and protection of the next generation. While our society is not about to distintegrate, I fear that our society will be less happy in the future for all the divorce.

    Comments please.

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    CC International Master JGB's Avatar
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    I think it has more to do with couples getting married not knowing what they are in for, and are not really in love in the first place. These days marriages are often carried out like a business transaction for tax or other benefits that married couples recieve in our society.

    But to claim divorce rates show unhapiness in society is joke. The fact that divorce is not seen as an 'evil' thing is almost good. Couples should not remain together if its never going to work out, thats worse for the chldren than if the parents lived together in an unhappy relationship, for the misguided belief thats its in the benefit of the children?!

    I believe divorce rates in countries like India and the middle east would be higher than ours if it was freely possible and not regarded with stigma as it is... when it is possible at all for the female to undertake a 'divorce' without 'consent' from the husband.

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    Account Suspended jenni's Avatar
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    There is no doubt that keeping kids in a "bad" marriage is a harmful thing to do. However it is getting to the point where people bow out of marriage just because it has gone a bit flat.

    I know one couple with 4 children who are in the process of getting divorced. They have said they still like each other and there are no problems, but they want something more in the relationship and so are splitting up while there is still time to find a new partner (presumably some mythical "perfect love").

    My personal view is that they are selfish wretches and should stick with the marriage until the kids are grown up.

    No marriage is perfect - after the first x years the romance starts to dwindle (and dies a lot more under the pressure of children). However if you work at it you end up with a mature relationship of friendship and respect, where you become a true partnership and family and not a disjoint collection of individuals.

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    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    I know one couple with 4 children who are in the process of getting divorced. They have said they still like each other and there are no problems, but they want something more in the relationship and so are splitting up while there is still time to find a new partner (presumably some mythical "perfect love").
    my view is that this couple should try some sort of marriage counselling first before divorcing. usually all that is required to rekindle some sort of spark is some time spent together away from the normal home pressures.

  5. #5
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Matt, I know this will antagonise you, but many of the most enduring and loving marriages I've observed have been CBC. Among families with children I've known, those where all children reach 18 without their parents divorcing, seperating or at least going close, have been a minority.

    The old ideal of being able to completely efface one's self in order to support a family appears to have more or less gone down the gurgler, if it was ever that generally real at all. Modern parents have to juggle their self-interest, their relationship with each other, and their family, as priorities, often while also very busy. There are all kinds of ways that people find to get it wrong - sometimes by trying too hard to be something that they're not. I agree that parents who are raising children should make supreme efforts to stay together if at all possible during this process. I am not sure whether Matthew's suggested solution to this issue (to make child-rearing the overarching purpose) would actually work for all families, or whether it would itself be a fatal and unsustainable imbalance for many. More power to him if it works for him though.
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    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Matt, I know this will antagonise you,
    do you want to just save time and move this to the perpetual flamewar rubbish section already

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    CC International Master Cat's Avatar
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    Of course we don't know the individual circumstances, but it's a very interesting question and touches on something I have been trying to rationalise and understand myself - that is the role of loyalty and faith within human societies.

    It's interesting that notions of nationhood is a relatively new phenomenon. Prior to the emergence of European Republicanism in the 17th/18th centuries most societies were generally ruled by some kind of monarchy. Political borders were sometimes ill-defined, often shifting. In some societies the king also became a deity, such was the loyalty and the respect recorded. However, loyalties were generally directed towards immediate family, then wider family and then local community. There was a sense of shared responsilibity within the community.

    Today these kind of community loyalties have been destroyed and there are number of reasons why this has happened. Individuals are far more mobile, not only commuting large distances to work, but also often affected by migration. Since the industrial revolution people have been migrating to cities, and international migration has followed. Different ethnic, cultural and religious groups find themselves thrown together. But people live in bigger dwellings also, they have television, the internet, their individual pleasuredomes inhibiting interaction with their neighbours. Consequently the sense of responsibility to and within these social groups is loosened. One no longer has to explain one's action to one's neighbour, if you commit adultery your aunt isn't just down the road to pull you in line, more likely Bruce will turn a blind eye. Gradually our senstivities diminish and our tolerances know no limits.

    But there is something far more insidious afoot, something ripping into the heart of our society, tearing our family bonds apart, destroying our sense of humanity. Aliens are competing for our individual loyalties, for the loyalties of our neighbours, for the loyalties of our wives, and especially for the loyalties of our children. These Aliens are far more sophisticated than we are and have far greater understanding of what drives us as individuals, our desires, our wants our basic interests. They know what price we hold over our soul, they know how much we would sell our grandmother for, they know what we'll do tomorrow even before we've thought about what we'll do today.

    These Aliens know because they have all the facts and figures, they've been studying us systematically for decades. Their interests could not be more different from ours, yet they tell us what to think, what to say and what to do and we do it. They are among us!

    Richards is loosing his marbles you say! There ain't any bloody Aliens around where I live. Oh yes there are!!!

    The Aliens I'm talking about have not arrived from another planet. You can't see or touch them, yet they are all around you. They control every soundbite entering our living room, every image entering our children's eye's. They are with us as soon as we can speak and death is our only escape. They create clever logo's to inspire our children's interest, pretty things for our wives to appreciate and shiney things for our men to desire. It's the Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging, for everything we could want. Who needs a child, a wife or a husband, when you have the latest Sony Shiney Thing?Who has time to care for poor old Aunt Jones when the Myer Sale is on? It's not greed, these are things YOU need!!

    In America, the average child witnesses 200,000 violent acts on television before they reach 18. Children spend more time recieving information from television than from their teacher. I doubt that Australia is very different. Corporate logo's are dieified, need and greed are confused, promises of satisfaction delivered over and over. All the while parents are portrayed as bumbling fools, uncool, living dinosaurs, out of touch and a threat to their child's social acceptance -they cannot be trusted. Big kids are just so cool, because they have Nike Power and drink from the Coke of Everlasting Cool. They prey to their Corporate Gods in the Church of the Poisoned Mind. They are carefully crafted, worked and sculptured into the most desirable of Corporate Clones, and we loose them.

    What we loose is their loyalty. Their respect, not only for us but also for the ideas and principles we work so hard to instill. Generation by generation, notions of society and community are replaced by corporate culture, material ambition and ruthless enterprise. We become the Aliens, not menacing or threatening but sad and pathetic. We cling to noble principles, outdated traditions and ideas that have no home any longer. The defiant power of Big Brother is neutralised by reality TV. Who the hell is Orwell, we love Big Sister. Love IS hate.
    Last edited by David_Richards; 24-05-2004 at 07:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGB
    But to claim divorce rates show unhapiness in society is joke. The fact that divorce is not seen as an 'evil' thing is almost good. Couples should not remain together if its never going to work out, ...
    Divorce involving children lead in most cases to the parent with the children - usually the mother - crashing into proverty. If you think proverty is not a receipy for unhappines, you have never known proverty, or read much.

    If divorce is "giving up", it may well be a net evil. If divorce is "cutting your losses", it may well be a net positive. The trouble is, I think, is that "never going to work" is a symptom of selfishness. In deed, divorcees are more likely to divorce again in any subsequent marriage. That would seem to me to be an indication of inflexable selfishness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    I know one couple with 4 children who are in the process of getting divorced. They have said they still like each other and there are no problems, but they want something more in the relationship and so are splitting up while there is still time to find a new partner (presumably some mythical "perfect love").

    My personal view is that they are selfish wretches and should stick with the marriage until the kids are grown up.
    Is "selfish wretches" the best you can do? How about "psychopathic maggots".

    Anyway, if they want a bit more out of life, can't they be more French in and out of their relationship.

  10. #10
    CC International Master JGB's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Matthew Sweeney]Divorce involving children lead in most cases to the parent with the children - usually the mother - crashing into proverty.QUOTE]


    Can you prove this?? 'most cases'... crashing into poverty??

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    [QUOTE=JGB]
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Sweeney
    Divorce involving children lead in most cases to the parent with the children - usually the mother - crashing into proverty.QUOTE]


    Can you prove this?? 'most cases'... crashing into poverty??
    60% of the World's Population (4 billion people) exist on less than $2/day, most of them women and children, and mostly dispossessed.
    Power comes from the barrel of a gun.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Matt, I know this will antagonise you, but many of the most enduring and loving marriages I've observed have been CBC.
    But they are not actually married, they are shacked up with a certificate. The consumation of a marriage is part of all societies because the nexus between shagging and children is welll known.

    Among families with children I've known, those where all children reach 18 without their parents divorcing, seperating or at least going close, have been a minority. /
    So?

    The old ideal of being able to completely efface one's self in order to support a family appears to have more or less gone down the gurgler,
    Not so old idea! And why has it gone down the gurgler? An emphesis on individual selfinterest per chance?

    Modern parents have to juggle their self-interest, their relationship with each other, and their family, as priorities, often while also very busy.
    As any decent parent will tell you, the kids are the first priority. The rest is an insignificant juggle. You cannot know it until you have tried it - hence the contempt the childless receive (from us) when they attampt to tell parents what is or is not good for families.

    I agree that parents who are raising children should make supreme efforts to stay together if at all possible during this process.
    You are sooooooooooo lucky that you agree.

    I am not sure whether Matthew's suggested solution to this issue (to make child-rearing the overarching purpose) would actually work for all families, or whether it would itself be a fatal and unsustainable imbalance for many.
    Well, the fact that our societies are founded on the idea that the wellbeing of children is the purpose of marriage is an a priori arguement for insisting that failing couples with children, pull their horns in and make it work.

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    [QUOTE=JGB]
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Sweeney
    Divorce involving children lead in most cases to the parent with the children - usually the mother - crashing into proverty.QUOTE]


    Can you prove this?? 'most cases'... crashing into poverty??
    Do I realyhave to google for you?

    http://www.apfn.com.pt/Noticias/Jul2000/infovitae26.htm

    http://www.parl.gc.ca/english/hansar...6/057PB1E.html

  14. #14
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni
    I know one couple with 4 children who are in the process of getting divorced. They have said they still like each other and there are no problems, but they want something more in the relationship and so are splitting up while there is still time to find a new partner (presumably some mythical "perfect love").

    My personal view is that they are selfish wretches and should stick with the marriage until the kids are grown up.
    I agree.

    Some people in these cases seem to be acting out of fear that if they don't find a new partner soon they will be "left on the shelf". I know men my age (early thirties) and women even in their mid-twenties who fret like crazy about this - and it's all the more silly when I also know people twice the age or older who have successfully started new relationships, often with people a decade or two their junior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David_Richards
    The Aliens I'm talking about have not arrived from another planet. You can't see or touch them, yet they are all around you. They control every soundbite entering our living room, every image entering our children's eye's. They are with us as soon as we can speak and death is our only escape. They create clever logo's to inspire our children's interest, pretty things for our wives to appreciate and shiney things for our men to desire. It's the Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging, for everything we could want.
    I recently read "NO LOGO" by Naomi Klein. Should be compulsory reading at highschool.

    Read the reviews:
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

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