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  1. #1
    CC International Master Rhubarb's Avatar
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    Study-like victory

    I've seen studies where Q&N vs. Q is a win with a long series of 20 or more moves. It's typical of Shirov that he should do something similar in a tournament game. It's worth trying to visualise the two main lines after 66...Qf2+.

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    Last edited by skip to my lou; 29-06-2004 at 09:52 PM.

  2. #2
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Canfell
    I've seen studies where Q&N vs. Q is a win with a long series of 20 or more moves. It's typical of Shirov that he should do something similar in a tournament game. It's worth trying to visualise the two main lines after 66...Qf2+.
    Indeed. The other one is shorter. It's impressive how well the Q+N work together - the starting configuration (which of course he would have seen in advance) is very good for the winning side. It's also study-like because White seems to play the best possible defences but all to no avail.

    I've never seen QNvQ first-hand in a serious game. BCO has an amusing practical example Ljubojevic-Hjartarson 1991 in which Black walked into a mate in an otherwise drawn position - but escaped with a draw because the blunder was 47 moves into the endgame and White needed five more moves for the mate.
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  3. #3
    CC Candidate Master Sutek's Avatar
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    61.Kf1!?

    Indeed it is study like and a nice way to finish the game.
    But how does black win after 61.Kf1!?

    Regards
    Sutek
    Last edited by Sutek; 22-05-2004 at 06:29 AM.

  4. #4
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutek
    Indeed it is study like and a nice way to finish the game.
    But how does black win after 61.Kf1!?
    I'm guessing that he can't, but feel free to disabuse me of that notion. A valiant attempt is 61...Ne5 62.Kf2 Bc6 63.Rc8 Nd3+ 64.Kf1 Bb5 but now White has 65.b7! and if Black "wins" the pawn by ...Nc5+ it all goes nowhere after 66.Kf2 Nxb7 67.Rf8. If Black saves the pawn by ...Be2 there's 68.Re8+ Kd3 69.Ke1! with the stalemate defence Re3+ coming, a sorry tale indeed. 61...Bc6 just seems to lead to the rook pestering things forever.

    My comment about White finding the best defences related only to the QN vs Q ending; it looks like Shirov was a bit lucky to get that ending in the first place and that 61.Kg3 allowing it is a mistake.
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  5. #5
    CC Candidate Master Sutek's Avatar
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    Hi Kevin,

    I couldn't find a win either after 61.Kf1.
    Maybe Greg can find one.

    Regards
    Sutek

  6. #6
    Account Permanently Banned PHAT's Avatar
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    The pgn stops working at at 3. ... Nf6 for me

  7. #7
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Works fine for me.

  8. #8
    CC International Master Rhubarb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Sweeney
    The pgn stops working at at 3. ... Nf6 for me
    Matt, I think the pgn's OK, but takes a long time to fully load every piece every time you open the page if you have a slowish connection like me (plus Explorer has this annoying habit of saying 'done' at the bottom of the page, even though it still has lots of things left to load).
    [Note to gareth: don't quote games in your replies - if you must quote (as opposed to 'post reply') then edit out the actual pgn before posting ]

    Steve, Kevin, I haven't looked properly but I can't find a win against 61.Kf1 either (most impressive stalemate defence there Kevin!) although I haven't yet engined it.

    I did, however, look at some of the other positions Kozul could have allowed. Before both sides queen, he could have had the positions with (W)Rd8, (B)Bd5, Kd4; or with (W)Re8, (B)Be4,Ke3; or he could have played Q&N vs. Q with Black's King on e4, rather than on d5; and finally there was the variation 64.Rf8 Ke3 65.Re8 Be4 66.Rxe4 Kxe4 67.Kg2 Ke3 68.b7 Ne1+! 69.Kf1 Nf3 70.b8=Q Nd2+ etc. In all cases, Shirov is winning, sometimes in quite different fashion, but all of the variations are relatively easy to calculate. Which makes me wonder: how much did Shirov see? How much time did he have? Perhaps he intuitively realised how strongly positioned his minor pieces were in all of these endings, knew that similar endings were wins, and felt there would be a win? Maybe he'd completely stuffed up a winning ending earlier and Kozul should have drawn with 61.Kf1? Maybe Shirov accurately calculates at a million miles an hour and had seen everything?

    I hope he annotates the game, because as far as I know he's intellectually
    honest.

  9. #9
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Canfell
    and finally there was the variation 64.Rf8 Ke3 65.Re8 Be4 66.Rxe4 Kxe4 67.Kg2 Ke3 68.b7 Ne1+! 69.Kf1 Nf3 70.b8=Q Nd2+ etc.
    I've been looking at this one with silicon help and haven't found a forced win yet. May be missing something.

    Which makes me wonder: how much did Shirov see? How much time did he have? Perhaps he intuitively realised how strongly positioned his minor pieces were in all of these endings, knew that similar endings were wins, and felt there would be a win? Maybe he'd completely stuffed up a winning ending earlier and Kozul should have drawn with 61.Kf1? Maybe Shirov accurately calculates at a million miles an hour and had seen everything?
    I reckon it was a big fat world class swindle. (I'm not sure if that's true, it just might be.)

    I hope he annotates the game, because as far as I know he's intellectually honest.
    And also because he won't shirk from exhaustive detail, and if he feels the analysis is especially tricky he'll feel like he has to do it.
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  10. #10
    CC International Master Rhubarb's Avatar
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    I plead 'carbon'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I've been looking at this one with silicon help and haven't found a forced win yet. May be missing something.
    No, you're not missing much - I hadn't analysed this 4th and final variation properly. I believe you're right; Kozul could still have drawed.


    I reckon it was a big fat world class swindle. (I'm not sure if that's true, it just might be.)
    Not a swindle; a demonstration of power/knowledge-over-the-board.


    And also because he won't shirk from exhaustive detail, and if he feels the analysis is especially tricky he'll feel like he has to do it
    Let's hope so.

  11. #11
    . eclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Canfell
    No, you're not missing much - I hadn't analysed this 4th and final variation properly. I believe you're right; Kozul could still have drawed.



    Not a swindle; a demonstration of power/knowledge-over-the-board.



    Let's hope so.
    Is it possible that this (end)game might merit perusal by Karsten Muller in his next Endgame Corner instalment at Chesscafe ?

    eclectic
    .

  12. #12
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Canfell
    No, you're not missing much - I hadn't analysed this 4th and final variation properly. I believe you're right; Kozul could still have drawed.
    Yes I'm still not 100% certain but it looks like Kozul always has a line he can walk to survive.

    Not a swindle; a demonstration of power/knowledge-over-the-board.
    What I meant was that poor White, having played his heart out and apparently had a drawn position right up til the end, falls into the trap of allowing QN vs Q in a lost position rather than a drawn one. (Not really a "swindle" as such but it does look like it was drawn if a different QN vs Q ending was allowed.)
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  13. #13
    chmod -x /bin/chmod
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    Sparring Partner
    Last edited by skip to my lou; 23-05-2004 at 04:22 AM.

  14. #14
    CC International Master Rhubarb's Avatar
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    Thanks Jeo, an excellent innovation! I tried the various human/engine vs. engine/human options and didn't find a win for Shirov after Kf1 (although as Kevin pointed out it looks like Kozul could've drawn later anyway).

    Myself, I'm from the "silicon as a last resort" school of thought, and am trying to improve my currently weak analytical/calculation ability with a mixture of old-fashioned and (only occasionally) high-tech techniques.

    Which brings me to my point: Is chess in its Indian Summer? Will chess die in 20 years when the human capacity for judgement and 'understanding' has been completely overtaken by the brutes? Will humans turn to games like Go, where the larger matrix means that machines will take several more generations to surpass human mastery? And would any such game be likely to replace chess anyway, with its thousand-year pedigree and war-like allegory?

    Finally, will any programmer actually try to beat humans by modelling such 'intangibles' as intuition, synergy, planning? Or will they just kill chess by brute force? (btw, whatever the hell happened to neural networks?) I suppose it's a measure of chess's standing, as the intellectual game of choice, that the amount of effort spent on programming a machine to play chess is many hundreds of times the effort spent on all other games combined.

    Regards,
    Greg

    P.S. Shirov just won again in Sarajevo to go to 7/8. He eats 2600-type players for breakfast.
    Last edited by Rhubarb; 27-05-2004 at 02:16 AM.

  15. #15
    CC Candidate Master Sutek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_Canfell
    Thanks Jeo, an excellent innovation! I tried the various human/engine vs. engine/human options and didn't find a win for Shirov after Kf1 (although as Kevin pointed out it looks like Kozul could've drawn later anyway).

    Myself, I'm from the "silicon as a last resort" school of thought, and am trying to improve my currently weak analytical/calculation ability with a mixture of old-fashioned and (only occasionally) high-tech techniques.

    Which brings me to my point: Is chess in its Indian Summer? Will chess die in 20 years when the human capacity for judgement and 'understanding' has been completely overtaken by the brutes? Will humans turn to games like Go, where the larger matrix means that machines will take several more generations to surpass human mastery? And would any such game be likely to replace chess anyway, with its thousand-year pedigree and war-like allegory?

    Finally, will any programmer actually try to beat humans by modelling such 'intangibles' as intuition, synergy, planning? Or will they just kill chess by brute force? (btw, whatever the hell happened to neural networks?) I suppose it's a measure of chess's standing, as the intellectual game of choice, that the amount of effort spent on programming a machine to play chess is many hundreds of times the effort spent on all other games combined.

    Regards,
    Greg

    P.S. Shirov just won again in Sarajevo to go to 7/8. He eats 2600-type players for breakfast.
    Hi Greg,

    You could always take up punting?
    The silicon beast is excellent at compiling, displaying and number crunching but I don't see many Deep Blue's watching the horses parade at Randwick

    Regards
    Sutek

    Ps. They are racing there this Saturday
    Last edited by Sutek; 27-05-2004 at 06:51 AM.

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