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Thread: The Bxh7 Thread

  1. #46
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    I'll try to imagine it's a tournament game, here is my calculation (without computer or moving the pieces) with the risk to embarass myself:

    1.Bxh7+ Kxh7
    2.Ng5+

    2...Kg8 is obviously bad because of 3.Qh5, so I'll consider only 2...Kg6 and 2...Kh6 that don't look clear.

    a) 2...Kg6 should play 3.Ndf3 or 3.Nf1 with the threat of 4.Qc2+. Probably 3.Ndf3 is better, as balck would have to either take on g5 or play f5.
    a1)3.Ndf3 Bxg5 4.hg5 Rh8 5.Qc2+ f5 6.exf6+ Kf7 7.0-0-0 and he can't take on f6 because of Rh7+. two pawns and continous attack should be good enough. as we get closer to the target position, I might find something better.
    a2) 3.Ndf3 Rh8 4. Qc2+ Kh6 5.Nxf7+ (forking the queen).
    a3) 3.Ndf3 Kh6 4. Qc2 and black can't play Rh8 9Nxf7!)
    Meanwhile I threat to play 4.Qc2+ f5 and at worst I can play 5.Nxe6 and get an exchange, but after 5.exf6+ Kxf6 there could be something better.

    So a) 2...Kg6 seems alright. At worst I should get 2 pawns and a rok vs 2 minor pieces. when we get closer, I am likely to find something better

    Let's consider b) 2...Kh6. Here I wont to try Nf1 with the idea Ne3 and Ng4. Can he get his king out of danger?

    b1) 3.Nf1 g6 4. h5 Bxg5 5.hxg6+ Kg7 (5...Kxg6 6.Qh5+ Kf5 7.Qh7+ Kg4 8.Qh3+ Kf3 should lead to a mate. i cannot see it now, but I am sure will find it when we get closer to this position) 6.Rh7+ Kh8 (6...Kg6 7.Qh5+ can't see mate, but must be here)7.Rh8+! Kxh8 8.Qh5+ Kg7 9.Qh7#

    b2) 3.Nf1 g6 4.h5 Kg7 5.hxg6. Can't take back with the pawn because of Ne6+ forking the queen. Otherwise at least two pawn for a piece with continuous attack. Just noticed that 5...Rh8 can be met with 6.Nf7

    There are plenty of other moves, many of them unforced, but I am confident that the threats of Ne3-g4 and Qc2 should give me sufficient attack. Black would have to play f5 (as g6 does not work), giving me an option of R+2p vs 2 minor pieces

    Other factors (tournament situation, time, importance of the game, style and strength of the opponent) might influence how much time I'd spend calculating, but most likely I'd play Bxh7+

    I am sure analysis, especially with the computer would find a lot more.
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  2. #47
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    Just saw the analysis from Mangafragma (probably with the iron help?).
    It's intresting that computer consider 2...Kh6 more dangerous and find 3.Ndf3 to be better then Nf1.

    did you try 3.Nf1?
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  3. #48
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    Wow Igor, you see much more that me. Remind me to play something boring against you
    meep meep

  4. #49
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    It is interesting that everyone but me prefers Nf1 to Ndf3

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    1. Ng5 h6 2.Qh5 Qd7 and I'm thinking White will have to sac here to open lines sooner or later anyway.
    what about 1...g6. If 2.h5 Bxg5 3.hxg6 can be met with 3...fxg6. I am talking about safest (not necessary best) defence
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    It is interesting that everyone but me prefers Nf1 to Ndf3
    Perhaps computer finds a good defence against 3.Nf1 that is too difficult for human to find.
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  7. #52
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    Before I get into it, I think it's safe to say that everyone partaking in this thread would play it for the reasons you have outlined.

    The purpose is not to inflame or belittle or anything along those lines. I find the position very interesting and surprising. I think it is very instructive. I still don't know what the outcome will be. I know I will find it much quicker with multiple heads (being the calibre of you clowns ) on the job as opposed to just Captain Patzer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    yep, and that taken into account, the side with a mating attack having made a modest material investment would usually win.
    I think we're headed for a mac thing again, so I'm going to ease off. I understand what you're saying. I think we're at cross purposes. Jono & Barry have done enough bashing heads for one season.

    How about I summarise by saying "I hope white can indeed find the mating attack to which you refer", OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Perhaps if you put Rybka on it for a few hours it will find a defense, but I would risk losing OTB with a sac like this.
    So would/ did I. I'm not sure about the Rybka/ few hours thing. You might be interested to know that in my analysis, the comp was taking forever for white to 'prove' the attack. You missed some chat between The Manager and myself last night. Short story is that in one line black took 4 mins to refute white's 17 minute think!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    1. Ng5 h6 2.Qh5 Qd7 and I'm thinking White will have to sac here to open lines sooner or later anyway.
    I've checked this reasonable deeply with The Manager. From memory, white lost, although a couple moves later h6+ or hxg6 seemed critical for a result.
    Last edited by Basil; 26-05-2007 at 11:19 PM.
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  8. #53
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Perhaps computer finds a good defence against 3.Nf1 that is too difficult for human to find.
    Hi Igor. I think (not sure) white has to find both Nf1 AND Qc2. These moves are both quite slow. IMO, to find AND play these two moves is quite a challenge for white under the circumstances. Would you agree?

    Footnote: This position (refuting the sac) can ONLY be played at top level, so I am out of my league and will defer entirely to your and others opinion.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    Just saw the analysis from Mangafragma (probably with the iron help?).
    Joint effort, both of us making mistakes at points
    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    It's intresting that computer consider 2...Kh6 more dangerous and find 3.Ndf3 to be better then Nf1.
    I started off doing the same thing as you, (see post 17, though I was writing it down as I did it) and my line started with Ndf3, I never actually bothered to check what the computer's preference when I got to the computer analysis part. On checking now, 3 different engines, letting them each get to about 15 ply 2 give Ndf3 and one gives Nf1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    did you try 3.Nf1?
    I noted it when Jono mentioned it, but because it Ndf3 was my preference and because the knight on f3 is useful for being on f3 in some lines when I was analyzing I never looked at Nf1.
    Last edited by Aaron Guthrie; 26-05-2007 at 11:20 PM.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Wow Igor, you see much more that me. Remind me to play something boring against you
    Thanks. I wasn't trying to exhaust a position, it's too difficult OTB without moving pieces. Mostly tried to establish that I don't burn the bridges with the risk of immediate loss (e.g. piece down without compensation)
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    what about 1...g6. If 2.h5 Bxg5 3.hxg6 can be met with 3...fxg6. I am talking about safest (not necessary best) defence
    4.Rxh7 looks good
    meep meep

  12. #57
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    I'll try to imagine it's a tournament game, here is my calculation (without computer or moving the pieces) with the risk to embarass myself:
    MAXIMUM RESPECT BIG FELLA

    That is absolutely the spirit that I was looking for. Thank you.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    MAXIMUM RESPECT BIG FELLA

    That is absolutely the spirit that I was looking for. Thank you.
    Hey I did pretty the same thing at post 17!

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    4.Rxh7 looks good
    4...Kxh7. Knight on g5 is already taken and g6 pawn guards h5
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor_Goldenberg
    4...Kxh7. Knight on g5 is already taken and g6 pawn guards h5
    Whoops. Forgot Bc2 is still alive. 5.Qh5+
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