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Thread: The Bxh7 Thread

  1. #16
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    A pawn down is not terminal (no chat of GMs converting the smallest + please); because the parameters are about best play, even if black is worse after being a pawn down - assuming Bxh7+ is best!
    I haven't investigated whether not taking it is best play. It's sufficient for the purposes of the original question to note that Black is a pawn down with less than no compensation if the bishop is not taken.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    Lordy Lordy. Two Bxh7 games in a week!

    White is thinking of 15.Bxh7. With best play from both sides, is the sac sound?

    FEN Viewer
    15.Bxh7+ if not take clearly the position is better than a move ago for white (and if you really want to think about not take, 16.Qh5!), so,

    15...Kxh7+ 16.Ng5+, 16...Kh6 or 16...Kg8 or 16...Bxg5,

    16...Bxg5 17.hxg5+ Kg8 18.Qh5 f6 19.g6 ++--

    16...Kg8 17.Qh5 Re8 18.Qxf7+ Kh8 19.Nxe6 Bf8 20.Qh5+ ++--

    16...Kh6- 17.Qg4, or 17.h5!? or 17.Nf3 or 17.f5

    17. f5 g6 18.h5! ++--

    I am leaving it there cause I canna be bothered right now calculating more, not because I am sure that f5 wins like that.

    ETA-like everyone else that has commented, it just looks like Bxh7+ must win, so the calculation is just for calculation's sake.

    ETA2-Qh5 doesn't really work I guess
    Last edited by Aaron Guthrie; 25-05-2007 at 01:57 AM.

  3. #18
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I haven't investigated whether not taking it is best play. It's sufficient for the purposes of the original question...
    That's a fair comment, Kevin. Thanks. So, you support Bxh7. Good-o
    Now, have you plugged the starting position into a deep thought comp! (the wall is not for you)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    that Black is a pawn down with less than no compensation if the bishop is not taken
    But as I have said, prudent if not recapturing the bishop is the difference between mate and survival.

    And thanks for your efforts, Aaron.
    Last edited by Basil; 25-05-2007 at 02:23 AM.
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  4. #19
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Black has to take it or he's lost a pawn for nothing. After Ng5+ he can't take the knight without the queen and rook battery smashing him. He can only play ...Kh6 and with one knight entrenched and another able to move to the scene I don't think he can survive.
    But what can White get to the scene? Compare Russell John Dive vs Jonathan D Sarfati Wellington 1988 where 16...Kh6 foiled the attack after an h7 sac (by a knight this time).

  5. #20
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    15.Bxh7+ if not take clearly the position is better than a move ago for white (and if you really want to think about not take, 16.Qh5!), so,

    15...Kxh7+ 16.Ng5+ Kh6- 17.Qg4, or 17.h5!? or 17.Nf3 or 17.f5

    17. f5 g6 18.h5! ++--
    What about 17... exf5 first?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    But what can White get to the scene?
    The knight on d2 via g4 maybe. Qc2 might be a strong move at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    What about 17... exf5 first?
    Yeah the idea of f5 isn't very strong. 17...exf5 18.Qe3 Qe8!
    Last edited by Aaron Guthrie; 25-05-2007 at 05:12 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    Do you want to put the position into a comp on long thought?! Can you guess which move it recommends?


    A pawn down is not terminal (no chat of GMs converting the smallest + please); because the parameters are about best play, even if black is worse after being a pawn down - assuming Bxh7+ is best!

    Well, in this case i am afraid being pawn down is terminal because cover to the black king is destroyed so Kh8 is not a satisfactory response to Bxh7.

    Black should probably try Kxh7 Ng5+ Kh6...not that it is going to save his day.
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  8. #23
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
    Well, in this case i am afraid being pawn down is terminal because cover to the black king is destroyed so Kh8 is not a satisfactory response to Bxh7.
    OK. Thanks. As KB mentioned. So developing and tightening the proposition ... Should white play Bxh7?
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    You sure about this? I am coming up with nothing special for white.
    how about bringing more pieces into attack?
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  10. #25
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    Hi Garv. Please refrain from comp analysis commentary on the board at the mo. My hope is for entirely personal assessment commentary. Thanks. Perhaps even consider modifying your post. Appreciate the consideration in advance.
    Done, now MB and yourself should delete your posts

  11. #26
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    But what can White get to the scene?
    White doesn't need to get very much there given he can mate the Kh6 with P on h5, N on g5, N on g4 in the absence of any attempt by Black to stop this. The question is how Black might attempt to do this without opening himself up further.

    Compare Russell John Dive vs Jonathan D Sarfati Wellington 1988 where 16...Kh6 foiled the attack after an h7 sac (by a knight this time).
    White could have played 16.Qh5+ but after ...Kg8 17.e5 Rf5 (best) 18.Bxf5 exf5 the two bishops look better than the rook to me, although the position is fairly messy.

  12. #27
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    White doesn't need to get very much there given he can mate the Kh6 with P on h5, N on g5, N on g4 in the absence of any attempt by Black to stop this. The question is how Black might attempt to do this without opening himself up further.
    Indeed, White's big advantage is Black's difficulty in unravelling. ...g6 allows h5. But as earlier, f5 helps Black by allowing ...exf5 then g6. So White's best might be Nf1 with the idea of Ne3-g4. Black needs to play something like ...Qe8, g6, Rh8.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    White could have played 16.Qh5+ but after ...Kg8 17.e5 Rf5 (best) 18.Bxf5 exf5 the two bishops look better than the rook to me, although the position is fairly messy.
    I agree; this would have been much better for White than the game. It may have been better for Black to play 15... Rf7.

  13. #28
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kev
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon
    White doesn't need to get very much there given he can mate the ...
    Indeed, White's big advantage is Black's difficulty in unravelling...
    Aha! Really!

    I'd offer that once black finds the correct initial response or two ... it is white {raises finger a la STML avatar} who needs to sink into deep thought and has to ensure {if he can} he can justify the plan which looked so obviously killing but a few moves earlier.

    How many eggs would you like on your face, Mr White, one or two?
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  14. #29
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner Duggan
    Aha! Really!

    I'd offer that once black finds the correct initial response or two ... it is white {raises finger a la STML avatar} who needs to sink into deep thought and has to ensure {if he can} he can justify the plan which looked so obviously killing but a few moves earlier.

    How many eggs would you like on your face, Mr White, one or two?
    Bxh7+ seems to be more of an intuitive sac, although White should calculate Bxh7+ Kxh7; Ng5+ Kh6; Nf1 Qe8; Ne3 g6; h5 Rh8 and a few other lines. Alternatively, White could build up more slowly, since Black has played the French very poorly (...c4 slows his play counterplay too much).

  15. #30
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono
    ... since Black has played the French very poorly
    At our level, who knows how the position was reached !

    I'll post the game score later, as well. And it weren't no French!
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

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