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Thread: Mac Honour Roll

  1. #46
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    TCO arguments are flawed at their inception. PC owners willing to get their hands dirty can achieve a lower TCO throughout the life-cycle. Likewise enterprises who have some in-house capability can do the same.

    Apple is just the lazy choice.
    I think you need to tighten this up. Barry. Are you saying that PC owners can save money by doing some maintenance and running around on their machine. And then not charging this time and fuel, etc. out. Like a car enthusiast?

    Sure it would be fun for some people, but make that claim instead of your sloppy one.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    You know it's 2007 now, right?
    Would you like some more contemporary quotes? I think the situation has improved considerably for macs.

    Brian, if you're interested in this conversation, please try and help it along. Otherwise, please move elsewhere.

    Your contributions are:
    --I took it to the dump
    --My hands were dirty
    --Feel free to substantiate
    --You know it's 2007?

    Not grate from you mate. You're not actually contributing anything genuine. C'mon.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    At my work, everybody is provided with Dell desktop machines. I am not a particular fan of Dell (and yes, Howard, they are ugly as sin), but in over three years here I am not aware of a single instance of a hardware failure with one of these machines (and we are talking dozens of machines here).

    Oh, except for the exploding firewire card, but that was entirely my own doing

    So the cost of maintenance and repair is pretty well negligible in this case.
    Well, can't argue with that. I have ditto for my macs. I won't try and 'win' that one because:
    a) it might not be winnable
    b) I don't think winning is the deal here
    c) We might need more information for TCO such as 'obsolescence'
    d) This part of the MAC chat for me is about addressing any concept that MAC is clearly a far over-priced machine.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Duggan
    Would you like some more contemporary quotes?
    Yes. One of the (perhaps the very?) first thing they teach you about IT research at uni is to look at the dates of your sources. Anything 2 years old is usually useless, and often anything over 6 months old is too.

    I think the situation has improved considerably for macs.
    I don't. Note that I am not sustantiating my claim either.

    Brian, if you're interested in this conversation, please try and help it along. Otherwise, please move elsewhere.
    Ok, well you could start by naming some sort of parameters for your TCO argument. You seem to be talking about business/enterprise level decision, correct?

    Your contributions are:
    --I took it to the dump
    It was a joke, but some truth behind this. I may elaborate if the argument goes in the relevant direction.
    --My hands were dirty
    --Feel free to substantiate
    Well, if you are going to make far reaching, not to mention categorically incorrect, statements, then expect to be asked to prove them. Comments such as your "doesn't everybody know this" and a 5 second google job didn't really inspire me to bother with a complete rebuttal.
    --You know it's 2007?
    A completely valid point, as explained above.

    Not grate from you mate. You're not actually contributing anything genuine. C'mon.
    Happy now?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Duggan
    c) We might need more information for TCO such as 'obsolescence'
    My perspective here is probably a bit different to your average PC user. If you use Linux, hardware doesn't become obsolete nearly as quickly as it does if you use Windows. This is because Linux is generally much better at running on lower-spec machines, and better with legacy hardware compatibility.

    d) This part of the MAC chat for me is about addressing any concept that MAC is clearly a far over-priced machine.
    I actually wouldn't consider the Mac to be 'clearly far over priced' at all any more (they certainly were in the Power PC days). If you look at the pricing of Macs post-Intel, they are now similar to the prices of similar spec models available from some of the leading PC brands.

    In pure hardware terms, you can generally get a bit better bang for your buck from PCs by looking around for a good deal. Apple have long had a policy of not allowing retailers to discount their products, which means that you don't find special deals on Macs that you might find on Dell or HP for example.

    Also you usually find that the top-of-the-line processors, graphics cards etc come out on PC before they come out on Mac (if at all). So if you have a burning desire to have the ultimate hardware monster, then Mac probably isn't it.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Happy now?
    You seem intent on dragging this entire process into argumentative territory. Your style has been less than helpful, and when called on it, you do a mass dump and then act churlish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Perhaps the very? first thing they teach you about IT research at uni is to look at the dates of your sources. Anything 2 years old is usually useless, and often anything over 6 months old is too.
    I was unaware of that - not having been to IT school, but prepared to acknowledge that school's value. I'd argue that some things may be perennial. And as I have subsequently said, I think the mac situation has even further improved since those quotes, as their market share and impetus has improved (gut feeling based on personal commercial experience).

    As a result of this, I'll start a bona fide comparison job with my run-of-the-mill iMac - I'll ask you guys for spec and price comparisons. I'm genuinely interested to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Note that I am not sustantiating my claim either.
    I had noted that. Just looking for goodwill, ab initio, in your interactions - that's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Ok, well you could start by naming some sort of parameters for your TCO argument. You seem to be talking about business/enterprise level decision, correct?
    Again, it would have been helpful if you had asked that to begin with. The answer is no. My premise that TCO is similar (if not better) applies across the board. I will add that I am referring to Windows-based machines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    It was a joke.
    OK. Perhaps an emoticon? Especially when many of your other comments and general style is negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Well, if you are going to make far reaching, not to mention categorically incorrect, statements, then expect to be asked to prove them.
    Your justification is circular. We haven't established that my statement was 'categorically incorrect'. And you've made no attempt to show for the incorrect statement you claim it to be.
    -- I genuinely thought that it was common knowledge (especially among IT people).
    -- You yourself have said you're not necessarily substantiating.
    -- There is much evidence to support my position

    Why so pointy? What exactly is upsetting you? I don't mind being the one to do all the running, fact-wise, it's the thrust of this thread - but please, lift your general game - it's tiring.
    Last edited by Basil; 08-05-2007 at 03:10 PM.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    In pure hardware terms, you can generally get a bit better bang for your buck from PCs by looking around for a good deal.
    I'd like to get back to you on that one. Not sure I agree. But certainly more inclined to, if as yoou say, limit to 'pure hardware' only. Parts of the 'mac deal' are inseparably parameters beyond solely hardrware.

    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Apple have long had a policy of not allowing retailers to discount their products, which means that you don't find special deals on Macs that you might find on Dell or HP for example.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Also you usually find that the top-of-the-line processors, graphics cards etc come out on PC before they come out on Mac (if at all). So if you have a burning desire to have the ultimate hardware monster, then Mac probably isn't it.
    I may be out of my depth here, and prepared to get an education, but I'm not convinced at this stage. Also wish to get back to you.
    I think I'd need a bit more knowledge on these top of the range cards. I'm not even sure I know they exist - and how much they cost. An example would be good.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Duggan
    You seem intent on dragging this entire process into argumentative territory. Your style has been less than helpful, and when called on it, you do a mass dump and then act churlish.
    Howard, it's a two-way street. In sprouty's thread there were a few people offering him advise on minimum specs he might want to consider etc, and you felt compelled to put in your trolling comments which in no way met the system he specified.
    I was unaware of that - not having been to IT school, but prepared to acknowledge that school's value. I'd argue that some things may be perennial.
    That is true, but it's probably easier to underestimate my point about data relevance's lifespan than it is to overestimate it. In any event, consideration such as price are defintely not in the perennial category.
    And as I have subsequently said, I think the mac situation has even further improved since those quotes, as their market share and impetus has improved (gut feeling based on personal commercial experience).
    Well, I don't accept that just because you say-so. Wouldn't it be easier to start with a current source rather that one 4 years old and then try to extrapolate? Regarding your market share comment, the last figures that I am aware of, Q1 07, Mac is holding ground overall, which is comprised of gaining in the personal audio market (i.e. the iPod) and a small slip in the remainder.
    As a result of this, I'll start a bona fide comparison job with my run-of-the-mill iMac - I'll ask you guys for spec and price comparisons. I'm genuinely interested to know.
    That would be fine. I'll supply some comparable PC pricing. Do you want me to stick to RRP or the cheapest I can find for the public to buy?
    I had noted that. Just looking for goodwill, ab initio, in your interactions - that's all.
    ok
    Again, it would have been helpful if you had asked that to begin with.
    I agree.
    The answer is no. My premise that TCO is similar (if not better) applies across the board. I will add that I am referring to Windows-based machines.
    I put it to you that TCO discussions directed at the consumer are nothing more than sales BS to get the consumer to fork over more money.
    OK. Perhaps an emoticon? Especially when many of your other comments and general style is negative.
    I thought it was obvious, but I will take your comment onboard. I don't see an emoticon next to your animal farm comment. I assumed that was a joke. Was I mistaken?
    Your justification is circular. We haven't established that my statement was 'categorically incorrect'. And you've made no attempt to show for the incorrect statement you claim it to be.
    -- I genuinely thought that it was common knowledge (especially among IT people).
    -- You yourself have said you're not necessarily substantiating.
    -- There is much evidence to support my position
    Ok, well so that the discussion can continue, let me remove some of the wood from my sentence for you:

    If you are going to make far reaching statements, then expect to be asked to prove them.

    Why so pointy? What exactly is upsetting you? I don't mind being the one to do all the running, fact-wise, it's the thrust of this thread - but please, lift your general game - it's tiring.
    Is pointy your word for the month? You seem to be calling everybody that lately.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Duggan
    I may be out of my depth here, and prepared to get an education, but I'm not convinced at this stage. Also wish to get back to you.
    I think I'd need a bit more knowledge on these top of the range cards. I'm not even sure I know they exist - and how much they cost. An example would be good.
    Actually it looks like the top of the line Intel Quad core Xeon X5365 is only in the Mac Pro at the moment. It will have a wider release soon, but for now the Mac is in front in the processor stakes.

    On graphics card, the Mac is a bit behind. The top Nvidia Geforce 7300GT available on the Mac is well below the top 8800 cards, the ATI x1900 is a bit below the top x1950, and the quadroFX 4500 is below the top FX 5600.

    I don't know why I care, as I can't afford any of that gear anyway

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    Actually it looks like the top of the line Intel Quad core Xeon X5365 is only in the Mac Pro at the moment. It will have a wider release soon, but for now the Mac is in front in the processor stakes.
    AFAIK that is true, but I would be quite happy for this to tide me over until then.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    AFAIK that is true, but I would be quite happy for this to tide me over until then.
    A mere 4 cores? Pah.

  12. #57
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    Does the mac OS only run on mac machines?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Howard, it's a two-way street. In sprouty's thread there were a few people offering him advise on minimum specs he might want to consider etc, and you felt compelled to put in your trolling comments which in no way met the system he specified.
    Not true. I did have a little troll (perhaps 2 posts). I also qualified my trolls! But then I snapped back into assisting the thread, offering advice and wishing him well and so forth. I see your input into this thread as rolling disruption. I'm happy to move on.

    All your other quoted items, I'm good with, and where they were questions, I'll try and get back to you on all of them.
    Last edited by Basil; 08-05-2007 at 05:33 PM.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    Does the mac OS only run on mac machines?
    Yes, AFAIK (Bill or Jon may have an obscure exception that I don't know about).
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  15. #60
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    More On Total Cost Ownership

    More contemporary information on Total Cost Ownership.
    Again from a Google search {total cost ownership mac pc}.
    First page. The examples I'm coming across just appear. I'm not 'sifting'.

    Example 1
    This school's experience is that macs are the way to go.
    If embedded url, doesn't work, use this > http://www.mail-archive.com/macinsch.../msg00104.html

    Example 2
    This commentator who appears to be a self-styled TCO guru talks about various TCO in life and feels the same as I do at point 13. Third of the way down. Date stamp 18 April, 2007. I think this one is quite deadly, IMO.

    Again, not meant to be exhaustive, but the evidence is abundant that my original claim was not a wild one. Certainly now has been corroborated. Yet to find a case for PCs but I'm sure there out there.
    Last edited by Basil; 08-05-2007 at 07:00 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

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