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  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    what if they just turned up?

    Alekhine, Capablanca and Lasker (Em) return to Earth at the best strength of their Chess career. They come to Australia and are given until next Sydney International Open (2008) to prepare. Suppose the strength of the tournament is just about the same as this year's! They enter. They play. How would they fare?
    Please answer in ACF performance rating, and make comments about their possible strengths, weaknesses etc. Also you can comment about their chances if they played against any of the best ten players in the world at the moment or at any stage after 1948.
    Cheers and good luck!
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  2. #2
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heaviestknight
    Alekhine, Capablanca and Lasker (Em) return to Earth at the best strength of their Chess career. They come to Australia and are given until next Sydney International Open (2008) to prepare. Suppose the strength of the tournament is just about the same as this year's! They enter. They play. How would they fare?
    Please answer in ACF performance rating, and make comments about their possible strengths, weaknesses etc. Also you can comment about their chances if they played against any of the best ten players in the world at the moment or at any stage after 1948.
    Cheers and good luck!
    If the only difference in the field from this year is the inclusion of these three players I believe they would finish 1, 2 and 3. My assessment would be

    Lasker
    Alekhine
    Capablanca

    The last two might be same score and separated on tie-break.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    I'm in no position to evaluate, but for those readers who don't have access to Fox & James, you're in for a treat.

    There have been two serious attempts to compare players through the ages. I will publish both! Fascinating and no doubt a little controversial.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Duggan
    I'm in no position to evaluate, but for those readers who don't have access to Fox & James, you're in for a treat.

    There have been two serious attempts to compare players through the ages. I will publish both! Fascinating and no doubt a little controversial.
    ty Howie and please go ahead with providing this info!
    Cheers and good luck!
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  5. #5
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    If the only difference in the field from this year is the inclusion of these three players I believe they would finish 1, 2 and 3. My assessment would be

    Lasker
    Alekhine
    Capablanca

    The last two might be same score and separated on tie-break.
    A very interesting response, Rincewind! Being a classicist myself, I would have loved such an outcome? What do we answer, however, to questions like, "what about their lack of understanding of modern opening theory" and "lack of contemporay strategy concepts"?
    Cheers and good luck!
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  6. #6
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    The Greatest Ever - Version A

    Professor Elo (inventor of the FIDE rating system) and Sir Richard Clarke (English civil servant and grading expert) have both made attempts to grade restrospectively. In many instances, their results were substantially different.

    After inspection of the lists, my mates, Fox & James stood on one foot, put on a blindfold, whistled 'Dixie' and came up with their own version. Their text is riddled with caveats and qualifications denying any authority and kindly suggest that dissenters and pointy heads go blow (well not actually, but you get the drift). There's also some advice about ratings inflation.

    It should also be noted that this list was compiled in 1993. As a result, Kasparov is considerably underrated (they noted that if he kept performing into the naughties, he would have sole claim to the greatest ever). Further young guns who have since emerged are missing for obvious reasons.

    Perhaps it's best to ignore contemporary players, especially in light of the nature of this thread as we wonder at men of a previous generation.

    Enjoy!

    Code:
    1.=	2785	Fischer
    		Kasparov
    3.	2765	Capablanca
    4.	2745	Lasker
    5.	2735	Alekhine
    6.=	2730	Botvinnik
    		Karpov
    8.=	2710	Ivanchuk
    		Tal
    10.	2700	Smyslov
    11.=	2690	Morphy
    		Petrosian
    13.	2685	Keres
    14.=	2680	Gelfand
    		Korchnoi
    		Spassky
    18.	2670	Bronstein
    19.	2665	Rubenstein
    		Tarrasch
    21.=	2660	Anand
    		Fine
    		Pillsbury
    		Steinitz
    25.=	2655	Euwe
    		Geller
    		Kramnik
    		Short
    29.=		Bareev
    		Bogoljubow
    		Boleslavsky
    		Maroczy
    		Nimzowitsch
    		Salov
    35.	2645	Timman
    36.=	2640	Kamsky
    		Larsen
    		Portisch
    		Shirov
    		Stein
    41.=	2635	Beliavsky
    		Flohr
    		Najdorf
    		Polugayevsky
    45.=	2630	Gurevich
    		Khalifman
    47.=	2625	Andersson, Ulf
    		Hubner
    		Kotov
    		Speelman
    		Yusupov
    		Zukertort
    		Duggan
    53.=	2620	Chigorin
    		Ehlvest
    		Gligoric
    		Ljubojevic
    		Vaganian
    		Vidmar
    60.=	2615	Averbakh
    		Mecking
    		Nikolic
    63.=	2610	Furman
    		Ribli
    		Schlechter
    		Stahlberg
    		Szabo
    Just missing out by a poofteenth are:
    Marshall, Tartakower, Reti & Spielman whom Elo rated between 2550 and 2570, and whom Clarke rated slightly higher.
    Last edited by Basil; 18-04-2007 at 10:17 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    IMO, they would play at master level, say 2200-2300, but modern GMs would beat them quite consistently.
    meep meep

  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Greatest Ever - Version B

    In their book 'Warriors of the Mind' Keene & Divinsky produced their own list. Professor Nathan Divinsky produced this list from his own mathematical calculations. These figures are NOT ratings, but are a comparative strength grade.

    Code:
    1.	Kasparov	3096
    2.	Karpov		2876
    3.	Fischer		2690
    4.	Botvinnik	2616
    5.	Capablanca	2552
    6.	Lasker		2550
    7.	Korchnoi	2535
    8.	Spassky	2480
    9.	Smyslov	2413
    10.	Petrosian	2363
    11.	Morphy		2305
    12.	Polugayevsky	2290
    13.	Geller		2282
    14.	Tal		2255
    15.	Stein		2247
    16.	Keres		2233
    17.	Bronstein	2177
    18.	Alekhine	2170
    19.	Sokolov	2151
    20.	Boleslavsky	2141
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  9. #9
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    fascinating stuff!

    [QUOTE=Howard Duggan]
    Code:
    1.=	2785	Fischer
    		Kasparov
    3.	2765	Capablanca
    4.	2745	Lasker
    5.	2735	Alekhine
    6.=	2730	Botvinnik
    		Karpov


    I have a question here, I agree with Capablanca being placed ahead of Dr Lasker since he beat the old man in a WC match. But Dr Alekhine, who also beat Capa in a WC match, being placed 5th? However, I 've found the calculations absolutely fascinating, especially in the ratings allotment!
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  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    The position of Alekhine in Howard's 2 lists is interesting. I think he belongs relatively close to the top, as in the first list.
    meep meep

  11. #11
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heaviestknight
    A very interesting response, Rincewind! Being a classicist myself, I would have loved such an outcome? What do we answer, however, to questions like, "what about their lack of understanding of modern opening theory" and "lack of contemporay strategy concepts"?
    Cheers and good luck!
    I was basing my response on the players relative strengths and style of play and suitability of such play in today's environment. I understood from the question that the players were at the top of their game and had 1 year to prepare for the tournament. I think their natural ability in that timeframe would be enough to overcome the tyranny of temporal dislocation. This argument becomes more problematic as the strength of the field increases. However, the SIO field was strong but no world beating GMs played so I think it is not an entirely indefensible position.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  12. #12
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    says it all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I think their natural ability in that timeframe would be enough to overcome the tyranny of temporal dislocation. This argument becomes more problematic as the strength of the field increases. However, the SIO field was strong but no world beating GMs played so I think it is not an entirely indefensible position.
    That says it all, ty for the clarification!
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  13. #13
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    tournament record?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    The position of Alekhine in Howard's 2 lists is interesting. I think he belongs relatively close to the top, as in the first list.
    I wonder what was Dr Alekhine's record in tournament play as opposed to those of Dr Lasker and the great Capablanca.
    Maybe that is taken under consideration as well!
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  14. #14
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    Hi..

    Dont know much about the changes in chess over time, but would todays player be able to handle the style of openings back then and the aggressive sacrificial play of there era (not sure of that)

  15. #15
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
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    good question

    Quote Originally Posted by CameronD
    Hi..

    Dont know much about the changes in chess over time, but would todays player be able to handle the style of openings back then and the aggressive sacrificial play of there era (not sure of that)
    Great response, Cameron and hi to you too!
    Boris actually posed a similar argument in our orgiginal discussion some days ago. I am not in position to answer that, some of our stronger fellow chatters could give us a more enlightened view
    Cheers and good luck
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