Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 46 to 56 of 56
  1. #46
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,444
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Should he? Naturally if he kills himself to save others his deed will be greatly praised by many, but does that mean killing himself in that situation is morally compulsory to you? I suspect you yourself could save more lives than him without even dying in the process just by living an extremely frugal lifestyle and sending nearly all your money to overseas charities - do you do this?

    As I've stated before there is no objective right and wrong in these matters, but I'm curious that someone who believes someone "should" do something would extend it to an obligation to suicide to save the lives of others.
    I guess, given the fact that I am a bit overweight I identify more with the fat man in this example than anything else, so I was more saying I believe I should jump. If you are asking whether a person has done evil by not jumping then I am not sure, I don't know.
    As far as my lifestyle goes I am sure it could be improved markedly, you will not get an argument from me, I would never claim to be perfect.
    Lastly I don't think that you should call an act of doing everything they can to save others and as a result dieing, suicide. The person who dies may not have wanted to die, but put others lives ahead of theirs. Suicide is a deliberate act to kill ones self because they do not want to die.
    Scott

  2. #47
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,444
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Curiously enough in all my years of discussing moral philosophy I haven't before come across the idea of a moral code in which some actions are obligatory while others are called "good" but not obligatory. I guess this is because the usual model involves a hypothetical moral agent who weighs up the morality of each situation and then does the most moral thing in every case.
    Kevin, in the Bible the Apostle Paul says it is a good thing to not marry and devote yourself to God but he certainly does not make it obligatory.
    Scott

  3. #48
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,473
    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    I am meaning to refer to supererogatory acts.
    Now that you mention it in those terms I have come across the concept, but had forgotten it. (Probably having decided the whole concept of objective moral obligation was silly I couldn't be bothered remembering the concept of acts that are beyond the call of duty.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Sertez
    Lastly I don't think that you should call an act of doing everything they can to save others and as a result dieing, suicide.
    How is it so different to people who take their own lives so as not to be a burden to others?

  4. #49
    CC Grandmaster ER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Melbourne - Australia
    Posts
    11,681

    of fat men and trains

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    What if to stop the train from hitting the 5 you had to shove a fat man in front of the train, ought you do that?
    hey Manga, I wouldn't suggest you try to push a fat man in the first place, let alone in front of a train! You might end up doing some rail oilling!

    Cheers and good luck!
    ACF 3118316
    FIDE 3201457

  5. #50
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    4,383
    Quote Originally Posted by heaviestknight
    hey Manga, I wouldn't suggest you try to push a fat man in the first place, let alone in front of a train! You might end up doing some rail oilling!

    Cheers and good luck!
    "pushing fat men in front of trains" hmm, i would remind manga of the new 'hate speech laws' !

  6. #51
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    1,977
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Now that you mention it in those terms I have come across the concept, but had forgotten it. (Probably having decided the whole concept of objective moral obligation was silly I couldn't be bothered remembering the concept of acts that are beyond the call of duty.)
    From the Stanford link it seems that it is not a big part of the literature. For my part I only know about it since it was brought up as an objection to consequentialism. Although it does to me seem to be a part of folk morality, e.g. you don't have to forgive a person for something, but it is good if you do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    How is it so different to people who take their own lives so as not to be a burden to others?
    It might be the case that RS thinks this, but I don't think what he has said so far indicates such. Also since you think morality is not objective, isn't it adequate to just specify a factual difference?

  7. #52
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,473
    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    It might be the case that RS thinks this, but I don't think what he has said so far indicates such. Also since you think morality is not objective, isn't it adequate to just specify a factual difference?
    I was just curious about why he considered a specific act not tantamount to "suicide" when I suspect there is a blurry line from blatant self-sacrifice through to more normal concepts of "suicide".

  8. #53
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Bristol
    Posts
    1,977
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I was just curious about why he considered a specific act not tantamount to "suicide" when I suspect there is a blurry line from blatant self-sacrifice through to more normal concepts of "suicide".
    Fair enough. Lots of the process does seem to be about just figuring out what ones (or in this case, others) moral intuitions (or beliefs) are and what they mean. This can be separated from questions as to the truth, falsity, meaningless or otherwise of the intuitions (or beliefs).

  9. #54
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,444
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    How is it so different to people who take their own lives so as not to be a burden to others?
    Kevin, I think the motivation is different. In one case the motivation is stop others dieing, where in this case the motivation is to die, whatever the reason. The first being good, the second being bad.
    Scott

  10. #55
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,473
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Sertez
    In one case the motivation is stop others dieing, where in this case the motivation is to die, whatever the reason.
    I don't think it's that clear-cut at all. In the second case the motivation could be to not be a burden, with dying being a rather extreme step to acheive that aim.

  11. #56
    CC Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,444
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I don't think it's that clear-cut at all. In the second case the motivation could be to not be a burden, with dying being a rather extreme step to acheive that aim.
    Kevin, To commit suicide because you feel you are too much of burden is sad, and probably not true. I think it is just wrong. The person who dies still wants to die. A person jumping in front of a train to stop it hitting others may not want to die, might not be thinking of dieing only of saving others, although it seems rather obvious that that is what is going to happen. A preparedness to die to save others comes from a completely different mindset than a person who committs suicide in my opinon, although a person who is looking to commit suicide might do so in a herioc manner if the possibility arose.
    Scott

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. free will (+punishment and morality)
    By Kevin Bonham in forum Non-Chess
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 11-10-2004, 09:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •