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  1. #31
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Although not strictly what was called for, and as I think the assignment may be done, I offer a broadened scope of 'self-sacrifice'.

    Countless examples including my not wearing ear muffs while I listen to Australians speak, but Ian's offering reminds me of the act of falling on a grenade.
    Last edited by Basil; 30-04-2007 at 10:21 PM.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Duggan
    Although not strictly what was called for, and as I think the assignment may be done, I offer a broadened scope for self-sacrifice. Countless examples including my not wearing ear muffs while I listen to Australians speak, but Ian's offering reminds me of the act of falling on a grenade.
    That example, Is it any good?


    Is that any good? copyright Howard Duggan
    Last edited by bergil; 30-04-2007 at 10:23 PM.
    No this is silly, the whole premise is silly and very badly written. I'm the senior officer here and I've not had a funny line yet so I'm stopping it.

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bergil
    That example, Is it any good?


    Is that any good? copyright Howard Duggan
    It is an example of self-sacrifice, so no-one gets blood on their hands.

  4. #34
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    What you want is to get as much blood on your hands as possible.

    2 tracks, 1 man on track A, 5 on track B, train will hit the 5 men, but you can switch the track to track A with a switch. Ought you turn the switch? This is the example in the post Howard linked to.
    Then you ramp it up a bit. What if to stop the train from hitting the 5 you had to shove a fat man in front of the train, ought you do that?

    Or another one, a man is driving a tank and if he is not stopped he will end up killing a bunch of people. An innocent man is strapped to the front of the tank. Ought you drop a bomb on the tank, killing the innocent man but saving the many more that would be killed otherwise?

    Then you ramp it up by removing the bomb option, and replacing it. Ought you shoot the innocent man in the head which would cause his head to be splattered on the windshield (which somehow causes the tank driver to crash)?
    Last edited by Aaron Guthrie; 01-05-2007 at 01:04 AM.

  5. #35
    CC International Master JGB's Avatar
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    What about the 1986 Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster. There, choices were made to sacrifice innocent lives to 'clean up' the radiation. I remember the footage of military helicopetr pilots trying to smother the reactor. These guys did not last long after they landed.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    What you want is to get as much blood on your hands as possible.

    2 tracks, 1 man on track A, 5 on track B, train will hit the 5 men, but you can switch the track to track A with a switch. Ought you turn the switch? This is the example in the post Howard linked to.
    Then you ramp it up a bit. What if to stop the train from hitting the 5 you had to shove a fat man in front of the train, ought you do that?
    Yes you should turn the switch and no you shouldn't push the fat man. You shouldn't have to push the fat man he should jump.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    Or another one, a man is driving a tank and if he is not stopped he will end up killing a bunch of people. An innocent man is strapped to the front of the tank. Ought you drop a bomb on the tank, killing the innocent man but saving the many more that would be killed otherwise?
    No the bomb should not be dropped, dropping the bomb would be murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    Then you ramp it up by removing the bomb option, and replacing it. Ought you shoot the innocent man in the head which would cause his head to be splattered on the windshield (which somehow causes the tank driver to crash)?
    No it would be murder
    Scott

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Sertez
    Yes you should turn the switch and no you shouldn't push the fat man. You shouldn't have to push the fat man he should jump.
    If he is asleep and cannot be woken?

  8. #38
    CC resident nutcase Trent Parker's Avatar
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    OK i've got another one that may or may not be relevant.

    Stem cell research requires the embryos of unborn people. to the Catholic and other churches it is frowned upon but could help many people with quality of life stuff.
    GO THE DRAGONS!
    GO Western Sydney Wanderers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamski's signature
    God exists. Short and to the point.
    This is the reason I do not wade into religion threads.

  9. #39
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    Was just informed of the essay mark. Was actually the best mark I have ever got for a philosophy essay!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    If he is asleep and cannot be woken?
    Aaron. I wondered after I posted whether my post would be miss understood sorry. I was making 2 independent points. If he is asleep and can't be woken then let him sleep. It is wrong to kill him. I am pretty extreme on this kind of thing, I wouldn't say it is right to kill someone even if they had the means and were threatening to blow up the earth killing everyone.
    Scott

  11. #41
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Sertez
    I wouldn't say it is right to kill someone even if they had the means and were threatening to blow up the earth killing everyone.
    Scott
    It will take me a while to compose my considered, but short response.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  12. #42
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Sertez
    You shouldn't have to push the fat man he should jump.
    Should he? Naturally if he kills himself to save others his deed will be greatly praised by many, but does that mean killing himself in that situation is morally compulsory to you? I suspect you yourself could save more lives than him without even dying in the process just by living an extremely frugal lifestyle and sending nearly all your money to overseas charities - do you do this?

    As I've stated before there is no objective right and wrong in these matters, but I'm curious that someone who believes someone "should" do something would extend it to an obligation to suicide to save the lives of others.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    As I've stated before there is no objective right and wrong in these matters, but I'm curious that someone who believes someone "should" do something would extend it to an obligation to suicide to save the lives of others.
    "should" is somewhat ambiguous. It can be a weaker version of "ought", as in, it would be a good thing to do, but there is not a moral obligation. Or it could be taken as being equivalent to ought.

  14. #44
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    "should" is somewhat ambiguous. It can be a weaker version of "ought", as in, it would be a good thing to do, but there is not a moral obligation. Or it could be taken as being equivalent to ought.
    Curiously enough in all my years of discussing moral philosophy I haven't before come across the idea of a moral code in which some actions are obligatory while others are called "good" but not obligatory. I guess this is because the usual model involves a hypothetical moral agent who weighs up the morality of each situation and then does the most moral thing in every case.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Curiously enough in all my years of discussing moral philosophy I haven't before come across the idea of a moral code in which some actions are obligatory while others are called "good" but not obligatory. I guess this is because the usual model involves a hypothetical moral agent who weighs up the morality of each situation and then does the most moral thing in every case.
    "good" may be lax terminology on my part. I am meaning to refer to supererogatory acts.

    ETA- Or maybe my terminology was not that lax "Roughly speaking, supererogatory acts are morally good although not (strictly) required." http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/supererogation/
    Last edited by Aaron Guthrie; 05-05-2007 at 09:26 PM.

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