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  1. #16
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    I have no interest in your suggestion, sorry.
    no probs

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    I am trying to find real life instances of a particular type of moral dilemma. My google fu is currently failing me. I want examples of killing to save, and the killing is of people on your own side. I want to exclude cases where you only kill the enemy. The two I am thinking of are:
    1-bombing an area where you know your men are
    2-a fire on a ship or submarine meaning that it is an option to seal off the area with men still inside.
    If anyone happens to know offhand of any cases I would love to know about them.
    Aaron. I am not sure whether this is what you are thinking about but I believe in some cases of multiple pregancies parents are encouraged to abort some of the fetuses to try and help the development of the others. How much of a moral problem this is would depend on the persons veiw on abortion I guess.
    Scott

  3. #18
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    I am trying to find real life instances of a particular type of moral dilemma. My google fu is currently failing me. I want examples of killing to save, and the killing is of people on your own side. I want to exclude cases where you only kill the enemy. The two I am thinking of are:
    1-bombing an area where you know your men are
    2-a fire on a ship or submarine meaning that it is an option to seal off the area with men still inside.
    If anyone happens to know offhand of any cases I would love to know about them.
    There have been many instances in war where a commander has called down artillery fire on his own troops' position to avoid being over-run. Less dangerous than it sounds if the defenders are dug in and so protected from all except a direct hit, while the encroaching enemy is exposed. Google should turn up citations.

    Also, how about the Japanese battleship Yamato and escort ships ordered to Okinawa on a suicide mission - see http://militaryhistory.about.com/cs/...a/usyamato.htm

    And of course the kamikaze missions

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Sertez
    Aaron. I am not sure whether this is what you are thinking about but I believe in some cases of multiple pregancies parents are encouraged to abort some of the fetuses to try and help the development of the others. How much of a moral problem this is would depend on the persons veiw on abortion I guess.
    Scott
    That is actually interesting. It would actually have been something to think about putting in the essay.There is also issues about letting severely disabled babies die after they are born. But right now I need a specific type of thing to fit into my argument and what I have already worked on. Thanks for the suggestion.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray
    Also, how about the Japanese battleship Yamato and escort ships ordered to Okinawa on a suicide mission - see http://militaryhistory.about.com/cs/...a/usyamato.htm

    And of course the kamikaze missions
    I had considered Kamikaze pilots. It is a suicide mission, but they they often have no real choice in it. But this is going to add in complications that won't fit in the essay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Murray
    There have been many instances in war where a commander has called down artillery fire on his own troops' position to avoid being over-run. Less dangerous than it sounds if the defenders are dug in and so protected from all except a direct hit, while the encroaching enemy is exposed. Google should turn up citations.
    I got a similar suggestion in another forum. They suggested bombing by allies of occupied cities. I have been reading going through the list of cities bombed in WWII to find such an example. Not a fun thing to do, if I can put it like that. I just started reading through the friendly fire list on wiki, they have at least one example like you said.

    The bombing by allies and the firing on own position are probably the right examples for the essay. I am going to stop looking for more stuff on this now, it is just a small section of the essay so I can't spend too much time on it, and I really don't want to overload myself with reading about too many horrible events.

    Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.
    Last edited by Aaron Guthrie; 18-04-2007 at 05:50 AM.

  6. #21
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Googling "war calling artillery fire on own position" turned up quite a few.

    Long Tan was similar, with artillery being directed 10m in front of the Australian forward positions (who were not dug in). Pinpoint accuracy required at a range of 4000m or so in monsoonal rain, but the gunners were up to it and averted a massacre.

  7. #22
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    With some variation on the search terms you suggest I found this story 1950 letter shows US approved of killing Korean war refugees Which suits my purposes pretty well, as long as I can find an academic source that makes the same claim.

  8. #23
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    maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    With some variation on the search terms you suggest I found this story
    1950 letter shows US approved of killing Korean war refugees Which suits my purposes pretty well, as long as I can find an academic source that makes the same claim.
    Hi Manga
    I was looking at the subject this morning and I found a couple of sites which might be of interest to you

    http://www.kimsoft.com/2003/us-kr-relation.htm


    http://www.chris-floyd.com/index.php...tpage&Itemid=1
    (article by Chris Floyd)

    Cheers and good luck!
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    That is actually interesting. It would actually have been something to think about putting in the essay.There is also issues about letting severely disabled babies die after they are born. But right now I need a specific type of thing to fit into my argument and what I have already worked on. Thanks for the suggestion.
    Aaron, Will we get a chance to read this essay?
    Scott

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Sertez
    Aaron, Will we get a chance to read this essay?
    Scott
    That wasn't the plan. I'm reluctant to for a number of reasons. Firstly I am not sure if I am actually allowed to. I don't want my first essay that makes it beyond the class to be this one. I am giving the best defence I can to hard-nosed utilitarianism, which makes my position in the essay very brutal. So it is not necessarily my position, but my position on how to give the best defence to such a position. But it might be hard for some people to separate those ideas.

    I think it'd be ok for me to publish a summary of the section of the essay this ends up in, and explain what work it is doing in the essay.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by heaviestknight
    Hi Manga
    I was looking at the subject this morning and I found a couple of sites which might be of interest to you

    http://www.kimsoft.com/2003/us-kr-relation.htm


    http://www.chris-floyd.com/index.php...tpage&Itemid=1
    (article by Chris Floyd)

    Cheers and good luck!
    Ok ta I'll take a look at them.

  12. #27
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    My forum is not known for it's heavyweight contribution to society, but those who found manga's quest interesting may wish to contribute here

    If you wish to navigate around the place, click the logo at top left.
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  13. #28
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    Is the post you linked to you?

  14. #29
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    Is the post you linked to you?
    No. That would be Dave! Dave's a young man on our production team. My contributions are lot more dreary [handle = scene66].
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  15. #30
    CC Grandmaster Ian Murray's Avatar
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    Release of the movie '300' is a reminder of another common-enough type of sacrifice in war - a blocking force sacrificing itself to delay an enemy advance while the bulk of the friendly forces make good their escape.

    At Thermopylae it was those 300 Spartans (plus quite a few extras, overlooked by history) who slowed down the Persians long enough for Athens to prepare for the coming assault.

    The theme must have been repeated countless times since. The only instance I can think of is 3RAR during the Korean War, who held the Chinese advance at Kapyong allowing the rest of the UN front to beat a more orderly retreat. The Australians were ordered to withdraw when in danger of being cut off. They earned a US presidential unit citation for the action.

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