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  1. #1
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    Specific Type of Moral Dilemma

    I am trying to find real life instances of a particular type of moral dilemma. My google fu is currently failing me. I want examples of killing to save, and the killing is of people on your own side. I want to exclude cases where you only kill the enemy. The two I am thinking of are:
    1-bombing an area where you know your men are
    2-a fire on a ship or submarine meaning that it is an option to seal off the area with men still inside.
    If anyone happens to know offhand of any cases I would love to know about them.
    Last edited by Aaron Guthrie; 16-04-2007 at 09:43 PM.

  2. #2
    CC FIDE Master Southpaw Jim's Avatar
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    Try this. An extension of this example, I suppose, could be:

    Terrorists have hijacked a plane and are flying it towards, say, a nuclear reactor. You have your finger on the button for the surface to air missiles - do you shoot down the plane, carrying 300 innocent citizens, or allow the terrorists to crash into the nuclear reactor (with disastrous consequences).



    Unfortunately neither of these are real life examples but IIRC the US airforce had orders to shoot down the 4th plane on 9/11?
    "the other lefty"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurotrash
    Try this. An extension of this example, I suppose, could be:

    Terrorists have hijacked a plane and are flying it towards, say, a nuclear reactor. You have your finger on the button for the surface to air missiles - do you shoot down the plane, carrying 300 innocent citizens, or allow the terrorists to crash into the nuclear reactor (with disastrous consequences).



    Unfortunately neither of these are real life examples but IIRC the US airforce had orders to shoot down the 4th plane on 9/11?
    That article could be very useful, thanks. If there were orders to, or even if it just that there is a decision made if in the future there are any similar situations that is the action to take that is useful too, so thats another thing for me to look into. Thanks.

    So far the only cases I can find are, the ship fire on HMAS Westralia, where there was a decision to seal off a part of the ship. The other case is that of the Russian theater hostage case. I have a feeling there should be more of the type of HMAS Westralia, but maybe I have just seen too many movies. The 'ideal' for me is something pretty brutal, where the decision is clear, someone is alive, and your actions will result in their death, and the decision is to save people other than the one that will die. Also I don't want the people that die to be on the other side (i.e. those who you hate.)

  4. #4
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    I am trying to find real life instances of a particular type of moral dilemma. My google fu is currently failing me. I want examples of killing to save, and the killing is of people on your own side. I want to exclude cases where you only kill the enemy. The two I am thinking of are:
    1-bombing an area where you know your men are
    2-a fire on a ship or submarine meaning that it is an option to seal off the area with men still inside.
    If anyone happens to know offhand of any cases I would love to know about them.
    like a sacrifice in chess?
    like sacrifice for the 'greater good'?
    like false flag operations?(for this see many historical documented verified corroberated and substantiated examples!)

  5. #5
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Even though I dont know of an exact situation myself in the following context but I imagine that it has occurred more than a few times.

    A team of mountain climbers get caught at high altitude and one of the team is completely trashed. If the rest of the team stays to help the other trashed climber, they all die. If they leave, he/she certainly dies but all the others are assured of survival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    Even though I dont know of an exact situation myself in the following context but I imagine that it has occurred more than a few times.

    A team of mountain climbers get caught at high altitude and one of the team is completely trashed. If the rest of the team stays to help the other trashed climber, they all die. If they leave, he/she certainly dies but all the others are assured of survival.
    Although that's not really what I am looking for it might give me some ideas of where to look, thanks.

  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    I get the impression that we are helping you with a uni assignment or thesis

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    I get the impression that we are helping you with a uni assignment or thesis
    Yep. I avoided bringing in that aspect since I wasn't aiming at a discussion on the philosophical issues. I'm not sure if I want to outline the argument I want to make in relation to this, since it is an undergrad essay which is trying to put forward a good argument, not a statement on what my views are.

    But essentially I want to supplement the intuitions people have about these situations in a removed setting with intuitions people have when they are in these situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    like a sacrifice in chess?
    Huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    like sacrifice for the 'greater good'?
    yes
    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    llike false flag operations?(for this see many historical documented verified corroberated and substantiated examples!)
    Only examples which are accepted by the wider academic community are useful to me.

  10. #10
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    Yep. I avoided bringing in that aspect since I wasn't aiming at a discussion on the philosophical issues. I'm not sure if I want to outline the argument I want to make in relation to this, since it is an undergrad essay which is trying to put forward a good argument, not a statement on what my views are.

    But essentially I want to supplement the intuitions people have about these situations in a removed setting with intuitions people have when they are in these situations.
    why dont you write about false flag terror?
    i can supply you with whitehouse documents showing how they planned to shoot down an airliner and blame it on the cubans. ...its referred to as "operation northwoods'............you can discuss the questionable morals and ethics behind these acts............you'll get full marks for originality ,no doubt......i can even help you with the history of government sponsored false flag terror, since the time of nero!
    Last edited by Axiom; 17-04-2007 at 01:00 AM.

  11. #11
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    I dont think mangafranga will be including anything from Axiom

  12. #12
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    I dont think mangafranga will be including anything from Axiom
    you dont think

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    why dont you write about false flag terror?
    Because it isn't a history or political essay. Its a philosophy essay, I can't waste part of my word count (and indeed part of my energy to begin with in researching something which is controversial) on convincing the lecturer that this is in fact a factually correct and therefore relevant example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    you'll get full marks for originality ,no doubt
    Yes I will, thanks for the vote of confidence

  14. #14
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mangafranga
    Because it isn't a history or political essay. Its a philosophy essay, I can't waste part of my word count (and indeed part of my energy to begin with in researching something which is controversial) on convincing the lecturer that this is in fact a factually correct and therefore relevant example.Yes I will, thanks for the vote of confidence
    these are whitehouse documents!! why not the philosophical angle of false flag terror? there is absolutely no denying its existance in man's history ,therefore its a real issue to discuss in a philosophical manner. eg. how do we arrive at the conclusion:- "for the greater good"?...you could title your essay "for the greater good?-a philosophical approach"
    Last edited by Axiom; 17-04-2007 at 01:20 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    these are whitehouse documents!! why not the philosophical angle of false flag terror? there is absolutely no denying its existance in man's history ,therefore its a real issue to discuss in a philosophical manner. eg. how do we arrive at the conclusion:- "for the greater good"?...you could title your essay "for the greater good?-a philosophical approach"
    I have no interest in your suggestion, sorry.

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