View Poll Results: On Good Friday:

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  • I am a Christian and will be abstaining from meat.

    1 14.29%
  • I am a Christian and will NOT be abstaining from meat.

    0 0%
  • I am a NOT a Christian and will be abstaining from meat.

    0 0%
  • I am NOT a Christian and will be NOT abstaining from meat.

    6 85.71%
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Thread: Good Friday

  1. #46
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Atheist historian Tim O'Neill on the “Easter is Pagan” nonsense

    Atheist historian Tim O'Neill on the “Easter is Pagan” nonsense on many gutter atheopath websites. He notes that a lot of it comes from the moronic claims of 19th-century Protestant minister Alexander Hislop, beloved by the Chick tracts, both of which these atheopaths would despise:

    Ishtar = Easter: Get real
    Eostre: one uncorroborated reference to such a goddess
    Easter eggs: celebrating end of Lent
    Easter bunny: really a hare, since spring is where these normally solitary animals become very active

    Easter, Ishtar, Eostre and Eggs, History for Atheists, 16 April 2017

    One comment below the article says:

    Comical, isn't it, that the same people who cling to Jesus mythicism ("there's not enough evidence to prove he existed") will carry the Oestre [typo for Eostre] fable to their graves based on a single reference by Bede?

    One sentence by Bede? QED!
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 18-04-2017 at 05:58 AM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  2. #47
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Atheist historian Tim O'Neill on the “Easter is Pagan” nonsense on many gutter atheopath websites. He notes that a lot of it comes from the moronic claims of 19th-century Protestant minister Alexander Hislop, beloved by the Chick tracts, both of which these atheopaths would despise:

    Ishtar = Easter: Get real
    Eostre: one uncorroborated reference to such a goddess
    Ishtar is nonsense and Hislop's argument is plainly silly. Bede is harder to discredit since he was writing only a few centuries after the conversion England and the word Easter does not derive from the Latin or Greek word for the Christian festival. As even ONeill admits the word for Easter is associated in dawn and spring.

    For example ONeill (and the real historian Hutton) is forced to admit...

    "It is therefore quite possible to argue that Bede’s Eostre was a German dawn-deity who was venerated at this season of opening and new beginnings. It is equally valid, however, to suggest that the Anglo-Saxon “Estor-monath” simply meant “the month of opening”, or the “month of beginning”, and that Bede mistakenly connected it with a goddess who either never existed at all, or was never associated with a particular season, but merely, like Eos and Aurora, with the Dawn itself." - Hutton

    Which I'm happy with. I note that O'Neill, in his haste to prove everyone wrong, has thrown his weight behind the idea that Bede was just making things up since that suits his narrative. Bede may have been but since Jono normally venerates the writing of early Churchmen it is somewhat amusing that he is quick to rubbish this 8th century monk.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #48
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    Atheist historian Tim O'Neill ...
    Is he an historian? I thought he was a blogger with a penchant to respond to memes.
    While his profile says he is interested in history, he does not claim there to being an historian, rather self describes as: "Wry, dry, rather sarcastic, eccentric, occasionally arrogant Irish-Australian atheist bastard."
    meep meep

  4. #49
    CC Candidate Master TimONeill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Is he an historian? I thought he was a blogger with a penchant to respond to memes.
    While his profile says he is interested in history, he does not claim there to being an historian, rather self describes as: "Wry, dry, rather sarcastic, eccentric, occasionally arrogant Irish-Australian atheist bastard."
    I have never claimed to be a historian and always try to correct people who call me that. And I have a "penchant to respond to memes" because many of the New Atheists who regularly bungle history have a penchant for communicating their pseudo history via memes. I'm afraid you can't blame me for their choices.

  5. #50
    CC Candidate Master TimONeill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Ishtar is nonsense and Hislop's argument is plainly silly. Bede is harder to discredit since he was writing only a few centuries after the conversion England and the word Easter does not derive from the Latin or Greek word for the Christian festival. As even ONeill admits the word for Easter is associated in dawn and spring.

    For example ONeill (and the real historian Hutton) is forced to admit...
    We're "forced"? We're "admitting" something?

    "It is therefore quite possible to argue that Bede’s Eostre was a German dawn-deity who was venerated at this season of opening and new beginnings. It is equally valid, however, to suggest that the Anglo-Saxon “Estor-monath” simply meant “the month of opening”, or the “month of beginning”, and that Bede mistakenly connected it with a goddess who either never existed at all, or was never associated with a particular season, but merely, like Eos and Aurora, with the Dawn itself." - Hutton

    Which I'm happy with.
    Oh, I'm sure Dr. Hutton will be so relieved to hear that. I bet he was worried what your opinion might be.

    I note that O'Neill, in his haste to prove everyone wrong, has thrown his weight behind the idea that Bede was just making things up since that suits his narrative.
    I've done no such thing. I simply noted caution about accepting what Bede says at face value, precisely as Hutton does. Nowhere do I say Bede was wrong, let alone that he was definitely "making things up" - I simply note that these things are possible given the complete lack of any other reference to this supposed goddess.


    Bede may have been ...
    Which is exactly what both myself and Hutton say. Is English your first language? You seem to struggle with comprehension issues.

  6. #51
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimONeill View Post
    I have never claimed to be a historian and always try to correct people who call me that. And I have a "penchant to respond to memes" because many of the New Atheists who regularly bungle history have a penchant for communicating their pseudo history via memes. I'm afraid you can't blame me for their choices.
    Cool cool I'm sure Capa Fam will happily stand corrected. As you were soldier.
    meep meep

  7. #52
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimONeill View Post
    Which is exactly what both myself and Hutton say. Is English your first language? You seem to struggle with comprehension issues.
    Blind Timmy can see that Hutton is more neutral giving the existence of a Eostre cult at 50-50 odds whereas you are more sceptical and tending to discredit Bede's testimony. As Hutton says we don't know very much about Saxon mythos; the evidence being scant and the lack of cognates in Norse is not a silver bullet.

    In any case the thrust of my argument was that "the reason for the season" meme is particularly weak in the case of Easter since the English word for the festival has non-Christian origin which is true whether Bede made up the Eostre cult or not.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  8. #53
    CC Candidate Master TimONeill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Blind Timmy can see that Hutton is more neutral giving the existence of a Eostre cult at 50-50 odds whereas you are more sceptical and tending to discredit Bede's testimony.
    I'm sorry - I must have missed the bit where Hutton gave those very precise odds. Where is that? Here's what Hutton says:

    " It is therefore quite possible to argue that Bede’s Eostre was a German dawn-deity who was venerated at this season of opening and new beginnings. It is equally valid, however, to suggest that the Anglo-Saxon “Estor-monath” simply meant “the month of opening”, or the “month of beginning”, and that Bede mistakenly connected it with a goddess who either never existed at all, or was never associated with a particular season"

    And here's what I say in conclusion:

    "So "Eostremonath" could refer to an otherwise totally unattested goddess, a goddess not associated with Easter or it could be a reference to the month when the sun shines again as winter gives way to spring. We simply don't know."

    We are saying exactly the same thing. I give more emphasis to the reasons we could doubt Bede, but that's only because I'm addressing claims that assert that there definitely was a goddess "Eostre". Both Hutton and I are noting there are several possibilities and no way of determining between them.

  9. #54
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimONeill View Post
    " It is therefore quite possible to argue that Bede’s Eostre was a German dawn-deity who was venerated at this season of opening and new beginnings. It is equally valid, however, to suggest that the Anglo-Saxon “Estor-monath” simply meant “the month of opening”, or the “month of beginning”, and that Bede mistakenly connected it with a goddess who either never existed at all, or was never associated with a particular season"
    My bolding.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  10. #55
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Bede may have been but since Jono normally venerates the writing of early Churchmen it is somewhat amusing that he is quick to rubbish this 8th century monk.
    I have praised Bede elsewhere because he believed in a spherical earth, and provided quotes. RW whinged even about that on the ground that it's a not geometrically perfect sphere, although the deviation from perfect sphericity is about a third of one percent (due to an effect that no one predicted until Newton and observed even later, and I don't mean what one of the "Chasers" on the quiz show The Chase claimed: the flattening by the weight of the poles, when in reality it's due to the earth's spin).

    In the same thread, I pointed out that Bede correctly pointed to the moon as a major source of the tides, something that Galileo bungled.
    Last edited by Capablanca-Fan; 19-04-2017 at 05:57 AM.
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  11. #56
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road runner View Post
    Is he an historian? I thought he was a blogger with a penchant to respond to memes.
    While his profile says he is interested in history, he does not claim there to being an historian, rather self describes as: “Wry, dry, rather sarcastic, eccentric, occasionally arrogant Irish-Australian atheist bastard.”
    OK, how about ‘history writer’? He says:

    Given that I'm an amateur, I don’t. I read the work of the professional historians who do and present the mainstream, agreed, consensus positions they come to. (reply to comment on The Great Myths 2: Christmas, Mithras and Paganism, January 11, 2017 at 9:38 PM)
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  12. #57
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    I have praised Bede elsewhere because he believed in a spherical earth, and provided quotes. RW whinged even about that on the ground that it's a not geometrically perfect sphere, although the deviation from perfect sphericity is about a third of one percent
    Bede used the word perfect sphere probably motivated by theological or magical reasoning. Hardly whnging to point out a bona fide mistake.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #58
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    OK, how about ‘history writer’?
    Amateur history blogger and serial Beetlejuicee is probably more accurate.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  14. #59
    CC Grandmaster Capablanca-Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Bede used the word perfect sphere probably motivated by theological or magical reasoning. Hardly whnging to point out a bona fide mistake.
    There are degrees of perfection. Bede of course knew that there were mountains and valleys and deep oceans, so knew that it wasn't technically a geometrically perfect sphere. But those small deviations were minute, so the deviation from perfection was at most one part in a thousand. Where is your evidence that Bede was motivated by anything but the knowledge of his day?
    “The destructive capacity of the individual, however vicious, is small; of the state, however well-intentioned, almost limitless. Expand the state and that destructive capacity necessarily expands, too, pari passu.”—Paul Johnson, Modern Times, 1983.

  15. #60
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capablanca-Fan View Post
    There are degrees of perfection. Bede of course knew that there were mountains and valleys and deep oceans, so knew that it wasn't technically a geometrically perfect sphere. But those small deviations were minute, so the deviation from perfection was at most one part in a thousand. Where is your evidence that Bede was motivated by anything but the knowledge of his day?
    Your confusing roughness and eccentricity again. Please come back when you have understood the problems with your argument the first time around.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

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