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  1. #1561
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    Quote Originally Posted by keresiwish View Post
    Not trying to be mischievous, in the first round of a Swiss the entrants are ranked according to rating, and in an 8 entrant comp, 1 plays 5, 2 plays 6, 3 plays 7, 4 plays 8. Let's call this Model I for initial.
    In later rounds entrants are ranked according to achievement, and pairings in an 8 entrant comp would in principle be 1 plays 2, 3 plays 4, 5 plays 6, 7 plays 8. Let's call this model X.
    If Model X is used we would not see Knights and Bites B having to play a team with much higher achievement. The A grade draw seems to be inconsistent with Model I and Model X. What am I missing?
    It seems that you are talking about the Interclub B. Was it advertised as a Swiss draw? Nine round tournaments with eight entrants are not what Swiss draws are meant for. I'm not sure how the draw was arrived at but perhaps JTee can tell us.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  2. #1562
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    Swiss still

    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    It seems that you are talking about the Interclub B. Was it advertised as a Swiss draw? Nine round tournaments with eight entrants are not what Swiss draws are meant for. I'm not sure how the draw was arrived at but perhaps JTee can tell us.
    As I understand it, in both A and B grade the intention was for 7 Round Robin rounds followed by 2 Swiss. I am arguing that the intention is best satisfied if in round 8 that one lists the teams in order of success and then the draw is 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8.(In round 9 of course round 8 pairings are not repeated. This draw, in a Swiss, should not be done until Round 8 results are known) If the Swiss software does not allow Model X for a first draw, Round 8 in this instance, and insists on Model I, over-ride it, and do the draw by hand. If I am wrong, tell me.
    Last edited by keresiwish; 14-06-2017 at 01:29 PM. Reason: clarification

  3. #1563
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    Quote Originally Posted by keresiwish View Post
    As I understand it, in both A and B grade the intention was for 7 Round Robin rounds followed by 2 Swiss.
    The first 7 Rounds was indeed Round-Robin. The last 2 Rounds were decided by the Standings after Round 7 which I will explain.

    I am arguing that the intention is best satisfied if in round 8 that one lists the teams in order of success and then the draw is 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8.
    That draw is paired in Round 9, which you can find on the SA Chess website www.sachess.org.au by downloading the crosstable. Having the best 2 teams play in the final round, in my opinion makes more sense than playing them in the penultimate round.
    (The webmaster and I have put provisional in case my triple, quadruple check finds a mistake).

    (In round 9 of course round 8 pairings are not repeated. This draw, in a Swiss, should not be done until Round 8 results are known) If the Swiss software does not allow Model X for a first draw, Round 8 in this instance, and insists on Model I, over-ride it, and do the draw by hand. If I am wrong, tell me.
    Round 8 and 9 were done last night after both grades were finished and were manually paired, rather then by Automatic Swiss Draw. (I probably shouldn't put Swiss Draw on the crosstable, writing "Round 8, Decided by Standings" and "Round 9, Decided by Standings" is better.
    This is consistent with last years B Grade Interclub where the same situation took place. (William A-S i.e Bill Anderson Smith will also back this up as well).
    Also you are correct in noting that Swiss pairs Model I when doing an automatic pairing.
    Last edited by JTee; 15-06-2017 at 03:11 PM.
    "Such is life."

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  4. #1564
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    Continuing on, these were the Standings after Round 7, which decided which team was paired with which:

    Inter-club A Grade 2017 Teams

    Standings after Round 7

    Code:
    Place Name                Feder Rtg Loc Score  Berg. Wins
    
      1   Unicorns,                         20    256.00    5
      2   Knights and Bytes,                19    232.50    4
      3   Matisons,                         16.5  205.75    5
      4   Adelaide,                         14.5  185.00    4
      5   Norwood Blue,                     13.5  168.25    2
      6   Modbury,                          12.5  153.75    3
      7   Norwood Red,                      10.5  133.50    2
      8   Le Fevre,                         5.5    78.75    0
    "Such is life."

    -(supposedly) Ned Kelly

  5. #1565
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    Inter-club B Grade 2017 Teams

    Standings after Round 7

    Code:
    Place Name                  Feder Rtg Loc Score  Berg. Wins
    
      1   Norwood Orange,                     18.5  234.25    5
     2-3  Norwood Green,                      15.5  202.25    2
          Knights and Bytes A,                15.5  201.75    4
     4-5  Norwood Greys,                      14.5  186.75    3
          West Torrens Gold,                  14.5  186.25    3
      6   West Torrens Silver,                11.5  149.75    2
     7-8  Knights and Bytes B,                9.5   130.25    0
          Adelaide B,                         9.5   127.75    0
    Round 8 was manually paired (with colours reversed from the previous meeting) as follows:

    1 vs 3
    2 vs 4
    5 vs 7
    6 vs 8

    And Round 9:

    1 vs 2
    3 vs 4
    5 vs 6
    7 vs 8

    In the case of teams with the same score, the team with the higher Berg Score was rated higher.
    So -Norwood Green is Number 2 over Knights and Bytes A who is 3.
    -Norwood Greys is Number 4 over West Torrens Gold who is 5.
    -Knights and Bytes B is Number 7 over Adelaide who is 8.
    Last edited by JTee; 14-06-2017 at 03:59 PM.
    "Such is life."

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  6. #1566
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    It seems to me that the draw has been done very thoughtfully and consistent with the intention for teams with approximately the same achievement to play each other.

  7. #1567
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomasdav View Post
    Looking at the last teams tournament that had more rounds than teams (which was the 2016 Interclub B, details here), it appears that you are right and the pairing for round 8 was (with the leading team as #1 and bottom team as #8, etc.):

    1 vs. 2
    4 vs. 3
    7 vs. 8
    6 vs. 5
    Luckily I have the file conveniently with me to show that the Round 8 and 9 draw for 2017 Inter-club, was also used for 2016 Inter-club B.

    Inter-club B Grade 2016 Teams

    Round 7 Standings

    Code:
    Place Name                        Feder Rtg Loc Score  Berg. Wins
    
      1   Norwood Green,                            20.5  241.50    5
     2-3  West Torrens Gold,                        18    227.00    3
          West Torrens Silver,                      18    214.25    4
      4   Unicorns,                                 16.5  229.50    4
      5   Knights & Bytes Sharks,                   12    164.00    1
     6-7  Norwood Greys,                            10    121.75    2
          Adelaide,                                 10    108.00    2
      8   Knights & Bytes Kangaroos,                7      96.50    0
    And the draw for Round 8 and 9 of that 2016 Inter-club B Grade was:

    Quote Originally Posted by JTee View Post

    Inter-club B Grade 2016 Teams -

    Round 8 Draw

    Code:
    No Name            Total   Result   Name                        Total 
    
     1 Norwood Green,  [20.5]     :     West Torrens Silver,        [18.0]
     2 Unicorns,       [16.5]     :     West Torrens Gold,          [18.0]
     3 Norwood Greys,  [10.0]     :     Knights & Bytes Kangaroos,  [7.0] 
     4 Adelaide,       [10.0]     :     Knights & Bytes Sharks,     [12.0]
    Round 9 Draw

    Code:
    No Name                        Total   Result   Name                Total 
    
     1 Norwood Green,              [22.0]     :     West Torrens Gold,  [18.0]
     2 West Torrens Silver,        [20.5]     :     Unicorns,           [19.5]
     3 Knights & Bytes Sharks,     [13.5]     :     Norwood Greys,      [14.0]
     4 Knights & Bytes Kangaroos,  [7.0]      :     Adelaide,           [12.5]
    That Berg score strikes again
    "Such is life."

    -(supposedly) Ned Kelly

  8. #1568
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    Doing the draw in this way for rounds 8 and 9 with members of the bottom half playing each other and members of the top half playing each other for both rounds gives the fifth team a chance, if they are good enough, to jump up the list, especially in comparison with the fourth team who have scored only slightly better than the fifth team, but who now face two high performing teams. No draw can satisfy all criteria. Well done for looking at this so closely. Now why not fix the AFL draw which is extremely eccentric and which the clubs are forbidden to criticise?

  9. #1569
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    Quote Originally Posted by keresiwish View Post
    Now why not fix the AFL draw which is extremely eccentric and which the clubs are forbidden to criticise?
    The AFL draw and the Swiss/Vega draws are very different and are hard to compare. (Although IMO the AFL draw can be seriously confusing.)
    "Such is life."

    -(supposedly) Ned Kelly

  10. #1570
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    Also if you don't already know SACA Patron Aivars Lidums
    was awarded an Order of Australia Medal for his services to SA Chess in the recent Queen's Birthday Honour list. Well deserved Aivars
    Last edited by JTee; 16-06-2017 at 05:23 PM.
    "Such is life."

    -(supposedly) Ned Kelly

  11. #1571
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTee View Post

    Round 8 Provisional Draw

    Code:
    No Name           Total   Result   Name                Total 
    
     1 Unicorns,      [20.0]     :     Matisons,           [16.5]
     2 Adelaide,      [14.5]     :     Knights and Bytes,  [19.0]
     3 Norwood Blue,  [13.5]     :     Norwood Red,        [10.5]
     4 Le Fevre,      [5.5]      :     Modbury,            [12.5]
    A Grade draw for tonight
    "Such is life."

    -(supposedly) Ned Kelly

  12. #1572
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTee View Post

    Provisional Round 8 Draw

    Code:
    No Name                  Total   Result   Name                Total 
    
     1 Knights and Bytes A,  [15.5]     :     Norwood Orange,     [18.5]
     2 Norwood Greys,        [14.5]     :     Norwood Green,      [15.5]
     3 Knights and Bytes B,  [9.5]      :     West Torrens Gold,  [14.5]
     4 West Torrens Silver,  [11.5]     :     Adelaide B,         [9.5]
    And the B Grade
    "Such is life."

    -(supposedly) Ned Kelly

  13. #1573
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    Inter-club A Grade 2017 Teams

    Round 8 Results

    Code:
    No Name           Total   Result   Name                Total 
    
     1 Unicorns,      [20.0]  1.5:2.5  Matisons,           [16.5]
     2 Adelaide,      [14.5]  2.5:1.5  Knights and Bytes,  [19.0]
     3 Norwood Blue,  [13.5]  1.0:3.0  Norwood Red,        [10.5]
     4 Le Fevre,      [5.5]   1.5:2.5  Modbury,            [12.5]
    Provisional Round 9 Draw

    Code:
    No Name                Total   Result   Name           Total 
    
     1 Knights and Bytes,  [20.5]     :     Unicorns,      [21.5]
     2 Adelaide,           [17.0]     :     Matisons,      [19.0]
     3 Modbury,            [15.0]     :     Norwood Blue,  [14.5]
     4 Norwood Red,        [13.5]     :     Le Fevre,      [7.0]
    Standings after Round 8

    Code:
    Place Name                Feder Rtg Loc Score  Berg. Wins
    
      1   Unicorns,                         21.5  325.25    5
      2   Knights and Bytes,                20.5  298.00    4
      3   Matisons,                         19    292.50    6
      4   Adelaide,                         17    266.75    5
      5   Modbury,                          15    194.25    4
      6   Norwood Blue,                     14.5  210.75    2
      7   Norwood Red,                      13.5  195.50    3
      8   Le Fevre,                         7     114.00    0

    In for a Grandstand finish
    Last edited by JTee; 21-06-2017 at 12:53 AM.
    "Such is life."

    -(supposedly) Ned Kelly

  14. #1574
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    Inter-club B Grade 2017 Teams

    Round 8 Results

    Code:
    No Name                  Total   Result   Name                Total 
    
     1 Knights and Bytes A,  [15.5]  2.0:2.0  Norwood Orange,     [18.5]
     2 Norwood Greys,        [14.5]  2.0:2.0  Norwood Green,      [15.5]
     3 Knights and Bytes B,  [9.5]   1.5:2.5  West Torrens Gold,  [14.5]
     4 West Torrens Silver,  [11.5]  2.0:2.0  Adelaide B,         [9.5]
    Provisional Round 9 Draw

    Code:
    No Name                  Total   Result   Name                  Total 
    
     1 Norwood Orange,       [20.5]     :     Norwood Green,        [17.5]
     2 Knights and Bytes A,  [17.5]     :     Norwood Greys,        [16.5]
     3 West Torrens Gold,    [17.0]     :     West Torrens Silver,  [13.5]
     4 Adelaide B,           [11.5]     :     Knights and Bytes B,  [11.0]
    Standings after Round 8

    Code:
    Place Name                  Feder Rtg Loc Score  Berg. Wins
    
      1   Norwood Orange,                     20.5  306.00    5
     2-3  Knights and Bytes A,                17.5  274.75    4
          Norwood Green,                      17.5  266.25    2
      4   West Torrens Gold,                  17    241.25    4
      5   Norwood Greys,                      16.5  249.75    3
      6   West Torrens Silver,                13.5  196.00    2
      7   Adelaide B,                         11.5  173.25    0
      8   Knights and Bytes B,                11    175.25    0
    Last edited by JTee; 21-06-2017 at 12:54 AM.
    "Such is life."

    -(supposedly) Ned Kelly

  15. #1575
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTee View Post

    Standings after Round 8

    Code:
    Place Name                Feder Rtg Loc Score  Berg. Wins
    
      1   Unicorns,                         21.5  325.25    5
      2   Knights and Bytes,                20.5  298.00    4
      3   Matisons,                         19    292.50    6
      4   Adelaide,                         17    266.75    5
      5   Modbury,                          15    194.25    4
      6   Norwood Blue,                     14.5  210.75    2
      7   Norwood Red,                      13.5  195.50    3
      8   Le Fevre,                         7     114.00    0
    I'll just put it out there that a 3 way tie is still possible. And for those who scoff at that, remember what happened at last year's City of Adelaide
    "Such is life."

    -(supposedly) Ned Kelly

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