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  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Fide to lower rating floor again

    From the Fide President:

    Kirsan also said that FIDE plans to lower the rating limit of those included into the rating list to 1000, something they are going to do really soon. In the slightly more distant future FIDE will start to count all kinds of tournaments, including rapid and blitz.
    http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3589

  2. #2
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    The reason being..fide wants to collect more money in rating fees
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  3. #3
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
    The reason being..fide wants to collect more money in rating fees
    I have no doubt this is correct.

    'Twould be nice if they got a more responsive rating system first.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    'Twould be nice if they got a more responsive rating system first.
    One beneficial side-effect of lowering the rating floor is that the resulting rating deflation will add worth to FIDE titles. However, this will make the automatic titles in Zonals and junior events even more controversial.

    Since rating deflation would make it more difficult to obtain norms or to fulfill the rating requirements, the zonals will become even more attractive as a way to obtain the IM title. World and Continental junior events will also be affected, because the titled players will have even less reason than now to risk their rating points against severely under-rated juniors. These under-age events will be dominated by players under the title cut-off (2500 for GM, 2400 for IM, 2300 for FM) seeking the automatic title for the winner.

    An example of things to come is the 2006 Canadian Blitz Championship. The eventual winner, with 10.5/12, was paired at his Active rating of 1256! This player, Raja Panjwani, made an IM norm at the 2006 World Under 16 Championship. (Incidentally, the Chess Federation of Canada introduced blitz ratings last year, but only about 3 events have been rated, so they are even more of a joke than the Active ratings).

  5. #5
    CC FIDE Master
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    Time FIDE switched to Glicko 2?
    we have between us the barrier of a common language

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recherché
    Time FIDE switched to Glicko 2?
    Well increasing the ELO K factor would be a start. The 10 K factor is ludicrously slow.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recherché
    Time FIDE switched to Glicko 2?
    NO way, lets not discredit Fide ratings. Unlike the ACF ratings, they do have some value
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  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster Denis_Jessop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
    NO way, lets not discredit Fide ratings. Unlike the ACF ratings, they do have some value
    The greatest value that FIDE ratings have for many Australian players is that they are higher than their ACF ratings. The reasons for this are varied but most of them are unrelated to current (or, in some cases any other accurate assessment of) playing strength.

    For example, some players have a FIDE rating of 2000 or more which was obtained when the ratings didn't go any lower but it is not, and never was, a realistic indicator of their actual playing strength. Moreover, due to the sluggish reaction of Elo and the small number of FIDE-rated games played, this anomaly persists.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis_Jessop
    The greatest value that FIDE ratings have for many Australian players is that they are higher than their ACF ratings. The reasons for this are varied but most of them are unrelated to current (or, in some cases any other accurate assessment of) playing strength.

    For example, some players have a FIDE rating of 2000 or more which was obtained when the ratings didn't go any lower but it is not, and never was, a realistic indicator of their actual playing strength. Moreover, due to the sluggish reaction of Elo and the small number of FIDE-rated games played, this anomaly persists.

    DJ
    Dennis, I do not think it is to do with Fide ratings being higher. It is more to do with the fact that they are recognized internationally. Before, some Fide ratings were indeed unrealistically high, but now that Fide has lowered the rating floor they do reflect playing strength. The only reason that in some cases Fide ratings still do not reflect players' true strength is because not all Aus tournaments are Fide rated. If every club has its events fide rated, there will be no problem with objectivity and reliability of Fide ratings.

    By the way, there are also cases where Fide ratings are too low rather than too high. If some rapidly improving junior plays club events only, it does not affect his Fide.
    Look at Sam Chow. His Fide is still 2200 while his playing strength is 2300
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  10. #10
    Account Shoutbox Banned antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
    Dennis, I do not think it is to do with Fide ratings being higher. It is more to do with the fact that they are recognized internationally. Before, some Fide ratings were indeed unrealistically high, but now that Fide has lowered the rating floor they do reflect playing strength. The only reason that in some cases Fide ratings still do not reflect players' true strength is because not all Aus tournaments are Fide rated. If every club has its events fide rated, there will be no problem with objectivity and reliability of Fide ratings.

    By the way, there are also cases where Fide ratings are too low rather than too high. If some rapidly improving junior plays club events only, it does not affect his Fide.
    Look at Sam Chow. His Fide is still 2200 while his playing strength is 2300
    Does it cost much extra to have those Aussie tourneys FIDE rated?

    Another temporary reason for FIDE ratings being unrealisticially high is that if this lower floor rating is only new well not all players may have played sufficient games for their rating to go down accordingly with their proper playing strength.

    If the fee is peanuts (and Aussies are as well off as anyone else) well there seems no reason not to go with FIDE and many of reasons to go with them.

    I can well understand decent foreign players migrating to Aussie being upset because their previous FIDE rating becomes redundant. They have become international non-citizens. Bit like David Hicks and the Palestinians - sorry Mike, could not contol myself.

  11. #11
    CC International Master Rhubarb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDavies
    One beneficial side-effect of lowering the rating floor is that the resulting rating deflation will add worth to FIDE titles. However, this will make the automatic titles in Zonals and junior events even more controversial.
    While it's true that with a larger range there is the potential for individual players to be severely underrated (hence the K factor will prove to be far too low), overall this effect is far outweighed by the number of new overrated players. Every time FIDE lowers the floor it results in inflation because more and more players enter the bottom of the list based on their better performances, not their average performances, hence they're overrated, which eventually leads to a trickle-up effect, so to speak. There are also a number of other reasons for inflation across the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDavies
    An example of things to come is the 2006 Canadian Blitz Championship. The eventual winner, with 10.5/12, was paired at his Active rating of 1256! This player, Raja Panjwani, made an IM norm at the 2006 World Under 16 Championship. (Incidentally, the Chess Federation of Canada introduced blitz ratings last year, but only about 3 events have been rated, so they are even more of a joke than the Active ratings).
    Not sure what this has to do with FIDE deflation. Ratings that are jokes, regardless of which system is used, are usually the result of insufficient data. So, for exanmple, it will be a long time before any FIDE rating below 2000 can be considered reliable. Ratings in the 2000-2200 interval are only just now becoming reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Baron
    If every club has its events fide rated, there will be no problem with objectivity and reliability of Fide ratings.
    Except that FIDE's time control regulations, as they stand, rule out the majority of club events and weekenders for FIDE rating. And how do you reconcile rating all these events with your post#2: "fide wants to collect more money in rating fees". NSS.
    Quote Originally Posted by antichrist
    Does it cost much extra to have those Aussie tourneys FIDE rated?
    ...
    If the fee is peanuts (and Aussies are as well off as anyone else) well there seems no reason not to go with FIDE and many of reasons to go with them.
    FIDE fees cost about three times as much per game as the ACF system, and this doesn't even count all of FIDE's hidden extras, which the ACF currently does not pass on to organisers.

    There are numerous other problems with FIDE ratings, which have also previously been discussed many times here in the Ratings Arena, but on a more positive note I did receive an excellent piece of news yesterday. FIDE has launched the FIDE Ratings Server allowing national officers direct access to registrations, tournament submission and basic corrections. No more sending dozens of emails over several months just to get the simplest changes done.

    Greg Canfell
    FIDE Ratings Officer

  12. #12
    Account Shoutbox Banned antichrist's Avatar
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    Considering that doing ratings is mostly just entering prepared data into a computer it seems excessive fees. Is that the major source of their income?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDavies
    An example of things to come is the 2006 Canadian Blitz Championship. The eventual winner, with 10.5/12, was paired at his Active rating of 1256! This player, Raja Panjwani, made an IM norm at the 2006 World Under 16 Championship. (Incidentally, the Chess Federation of Canada introduced blitz ratings last year, but only about 3 events have been rated, so they are even more of a joke than the Active ratings).
    The point of this example is that a similar scenario might result in vastly under-rated players in the FIDE system. Suppose, for example, that the Australian Junior is FIDE-rated and that there aren't many non-junior events for Australian kids to obtain FIDE ratings. Many kids would then obtain a FIDE rating at the Australian Junior and not play many other FIDE-rated games for a number of years. (This has been somewhat true in the past with players obtaining FIDE ratings in the Asian or World Junior events, but being a few points under-rated at 2205 is a lot different to being hundreds of points under-rated at 1001).

    It may be, as pointed out by Greg Canfell, that a floor of 1000 might still be high enough that there won't be any deflation. At some point between 100 and 2000, however, the rating floor would be low enough that deflation (due to quickly improving juniors) would occur.

    All that being said, I think that lowering the rating floor should improve the accuracy of the ratings of the players above the current floor. FIDE just needs to do it properly. They need to have someone analyse their own data, and to pay some attention to Sonas, Glickman, national rating statisticians, and other experts.

    According to information I have found using Google, the optimal k factor seems to be about 24 for players over 2400 (Sonas), and about 48 for players rated 1000 (USCF). However, the k factor for low-rated players may need to be higher in the FIDE system if players aren't playing many FIDE-rated games.

  14. #14
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    Lower Fide rating

    Hi

    I´m a new user here and i saw this article wish is of my personal interest.
    i´m agaisnt the "rating lowering", in fact 1600 is too low already! I believe we should play for the quality not quantity. 2000 of base is ok, in my opinion.

    Best
    Franz

  15. #15
    Account Shoutbox Banned antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranzMadeira
    Hi

    I´m a new user here and i saw this article wish is of my personal interest.
    i´m agaisnt the "rating lowering", in fact 1600 is too low already! I believe we should play for the quality not quantity. 2000 of base is ok, in my opinion.

    Best
    Franz
    Sometimes patzers like myself are visiting some far off place and would like to participate in a big event taking place there, for the experience and meeting people. We may also happen to be giant-killers on our day and rise to the occasion to give a decent game against 2000-rated players.

    Don't deny our rare fine wine.

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