Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 73
  1. #1
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,716

    French Closed Tarrasch (and French Winawer) theory

    Don't know if anyone else here has any interest at all in my pet system but I thought I'd post this anyway and see if I got any useful comments of any kind. (Also someone might be able to help me with database games.)

    I have a number of sources of theory on these lines and NCO is by far the most detailed of them. It's the only one that includes 20.Bd3 (which my copy of Fritz usually plays) as an alternative to the standard 20.Nxf3 Bg4 21.Nxd4 Bxd1 22.Raxd1 Kxh7 etc generally evaluated as equal or unclear. NCO gives the following: 20.Bd3!? Bg4 21.Qc1 Qf8! 22.Qe3 Re8 23.h3 Bh5 "with compensation". This seems about right as after 24.Nxf3 Nxf3 the best Fritz has been able to find for White is something like 25.Rg1 Rxe5 26.Qxa7 Nxg1 etc which ends up just a shade better for Black. In one game it played 25.Bb1?? and got slaughtered.

    Today I thought I'd try another move for Black, 23...Rxe5, and after a few failures everything clicked (see game). I'm pretty sure the goose is in the pot from say move 30 on, so are there any equalising improvements for White over moves 21-29? I've looked at all kinds of lines and I've found better than what White played, but no completely satisfactory alternative for White after 20.Bd3 yet. The impression I am getting is that 20.Bd3 could be goosemeat. =/+ or thereabouts. Avoid.

    Any comments? Anyone know anyone who works on this line? Anyone got any databased games with 20.Bd3(tenatively ?!) for me to look at?

    Fritz 6 (2741) - Bonham,K (2212) [C06]
    Level=Blitz:4'+2". Fat City, 17.04.2004

    16MB, spare.ctg. HPPAV
    PGN Viewer
     

    (I don't win many blitz games off Fritz, about 1 in 100 at the moment).
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 17-06-2006 at 01:34 AM. Reason: Fixed PGN

  2. #2
    CC International Master JGB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,120
    Ill be having a good look over this game, as ive just started playing this system as white.

  3. #3
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,716
    There are plenty of alternatives for both sides earlier on, but once you get past a certain point there are a lot of long forcing lines.

    I play the White side of this too sometimes, depending on opponent, but I greatly prefer Black.

    Unfortunately my copy Fritz has lost interest in further experimentation on this line. Having now been thumped in it twice its learning function has got the message and decided its fatal mistake was 1.e4. It now plays nothing against me except 1.Nf3.

  4. #4
    CC International Master JGB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,120
    I found three different replies from white after 19... Ncd4. They are 20. Bd3, 20.Nxf3 and Re1. In none of my games in my database of 9 games have I seen a loss for white after 19...Ncd4. Although I dont want to be playing white here, just yet?!


    (178250) Kholmov,Ratmir D (2485) - Ulibin,Mikhail (2495) [C06]
    Sochi-A Sochi, 1989
    1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.c3 c5 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.0–0 Bd6 11.Nf3 0–0 12.Bf4 Bxf4 13.Nxf4 Ne4 14.Ne2 Rxf3 15.gxf3 Ng5 16.Kh1 e5 17.dxe5 Nxf3 18.Bxh7+ Kh8 19.Ng1 Ncd4 20.Re1 Bg4 21.Re3 Qf8 22.Be4 dxe4 23.Rxe4 Bd7 24.Rxd4 Nxd4 25.Qxd4 Bc6+ 26.f3 Bxf3+ 27.Nxf3 Qxf3+ 28.Kg1 Rf8 29.Qh4+ Kg8 30.Qc4+ Kh7 ½–½


    (203052) Kramnik,Vladimir (2490) - Ulibin,Mikhail (2565) [C06]
    URS-ch58 Moscow (1), 1991
    1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.c3 c5 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.Nf3 Bd6 11.0–0 0–0 12.Bf4 Bxf4 13.Nxf4 Ne4 14.Ne2 Rxf3 15.gxf3 Ng5 16.Kh1 e5 17.dxe5 Nxf3 18.Bxh7+ Kh8 19.Ng1 Ncd4 20.Nxf3 Bg4 21.Nxd4 Bxd1 22.Raxd1 Kxh7 23.f4 Qb6 24.f5 Qxb2 25.Rd3 Rc8 26.f6 Rc1 27.Rh3+ Kg6 28.Rg3+ Kh5 ½–½


    (392165) Szuk,Balazs (2355) - Peter,Sebastien (2201) [C06]
    Budapest FS08 IM-B Budapest (2), 06.08.2000
    1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.0–0 Bd6 11.Nf3 0–0 12.Bf4 Bxf4 13.Nxf4 Ne4 14.Ne2 Rxf3 15.gxf3 Ng5 16.Kh1 e5 17.dxe5 Nxf3 18.Bxh7+ Kh8 19.Ng1 Ncd4 20.Bd3 Bg4 21.Qc1 Nxg1 22.Qf4 Be2 23.Kxg1 Rc8 24.Rfe1 Bxd3 25.Qxd4 Qg5+ 26.Kh1 Qf5 27.Qxd5 Bb5 28.Kg1 Rc4 29.Re3 Rg4+ 30.Rg3 Bc6 31.Qd8+ Kh7 32.Rd1 Rxg3+ 33.hxg3 Qxe5 34.Qh4+ Kg6 35.Qf4 Qe2 36.Rd6+ Kh7 37.Qf5+ 1–0
    Last edited by JGB; 28-04-2004 at 03:47 PM.

  5. #5
    CC International Master JGB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,120
    Kevin, if you want a few more examples of the Bd3 line I could have a deeper look.

  6. #6
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,716
    Wow, thanks for those. If you see any others ... Actually I'm not sure how many others there are with 20.Bd3 , NCO doesn't quote any source for its lines.

    Kramnik-Ulibin is well known, it was the main game for the theoretical article by Ulibin and Lisenko in NIC 25 1992. This draw is one of the reasons 20.Bd3 was looked at as an alternative since it did not seem White was going anywhere in the 20.Nxf3 line. Games with 20.Bd3 will probably be from the last 10 years only as the move wasn't even mentioned in 1992.

    Szuk-Peter (haven't seen this one) includes 21...Nxg1 instead of 21...Qf8. I have tried ...Nxg1 against the computer and it's not a good line for Black, Fritz just plays 23.Rxg1 (rather than 23.Kxg1 in the game) and Black ends up a pawn down and grovelling for a draw. 23.Kxg1 is probably good too.

    In Kholmov-Ulibin, Kholmov later noted that Ulibin missed 21...Qh4 which leads to a large advantage for Black. (comes out as something like Q+P for R+B).

    White can avoid all this nonsense entirely with 14.Qc1, which is quite a common move. I haven't studied that as deeply but the NCO evaluations say that Black has little to fear.

    5.f4 is good for White at club level if you know what you're doing. (If you don't know what you're doing Black often wins a pawn by exploiting pins on the g1-a7 diagonal.)

  7. #7
    CC International Master JGB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,120
    I was just at the chessbas site, and I found heaps of games played with this position, have you had a look lately?

  8. #8
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,716
    Thanks James! I don't normally use chessbase because the applet takes a zillion years to load on my computer but this time it was very well worth the effort: another ten 20.Bd3 games plus the one you posted before. Net score for the eleven is +5=5-1 to White but looking more closely it's a very different story.

    Of the ten five were useful to me.

    The others were:

    * three black losses through bad deviations (21...Qh4?, 22...g5? and in another 22..Qxe5?)

    * two games with 23...Bh5 as in NCO. (One draw and one where Black lost by playing the ending really badly)

    *a useful one where Black played 22...Qf7!? and White was lucky to draw. Need to look at this idea much more closely and consider possible White replies.

    Here's two with "my" 23...Rxe5 (surprise surprise I wasn't first.)

    Game one: I have no idea why the draw because Black is clearly much better at the end.

    [Event "IECC"]
    [Site "IECC email"]
    [Date "1996.??.??"]
    [Round "0"]
    [White "Feagin,Joe R"]
    [Black "Barlow,John A"]
    [Result "1/2"]
    [Eco "C06"]
    1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6
    9.exf6 Nxf6 10.Nf3 Bd6 11.0-0 0-0 12.Bf4 Bxf4 13.Nxf4 Ne4 14.Ne2 Rxf3 15.gxf3 Ng5 16.Kh1 e5
    17.dxe5 Nxf3 18.Bxh7+ Kh8 19.Ng1 Ncd4 20.Bd3 Bg4 21.Qc1 Qf8 22.Qe3 Re8 23.h3 Rxe5 24.hxg4 g5
    25.Nxf3 Rxe3 26.fxe3 Nxf3 27.Rac1 Qh6+ 28.Kg2 Nh4+ 29.Kh2 Qd6+ 30.Kh3 Qe5 31.Rfe1 Qxb2 32.Rc2 Qa3
    33.Rd1 Qe7 34.Re1 Kg7 35.Ree2 a6 36.Rc1 Qf6 37.Rc7+ Kf8 38.Bf5 Qa1 39.Rcc2 Qf1+ 40.Kg3 Qf3+
    41.Kh2 Nxf5 42.gxf5 g4 43.Kg1 g3 44.f6 Kf7 45.Re1 Qe4 46.Rg2 Qe5 1/2

    Game two: White deviates with 25.Bg6!? and Black takes a quick draw. However 27...Ne5 looks like a possible improvement on Black's play. (Fritz initially likes it for White but eventually gets disabused, Black seems better but it's messy.)

    [Event "W-ch23 sf03 email"]
    [Site "ICCF Email"]
    [Date "1999.??.??"]
    [Round "0"]
    [White "Behling,Helmut"]
    [Black "Gatto,Claudio"]
    [Result "1/2"]
    [Eco "C06"]
    1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.c3 c5 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6
    9.exf6 Nxf6 10.0-0 Bd6 11.Nf3 0-0 12.Bf4 Bxf4 13.Nxf4 Ne4 14.Ne2 Rxf3 15.gxf3 Ng5 16.Kh1 e5
    17.dxe5 Nxf3 18.Bxh7+ Kh8 19.Ng1 Ncd4 20.Bd3 Bg4 21.Qc1 Qf8 22.Qe3 Re8 23.h3 Rxe5 24.hxg4 g5
    25.Bg6 Rxe3 26.fxe3 Qh6+ 27.Bh5 Nxg1 28.Kxg1 Qd6 29.exd4 Qg3+ 1/2

    And this one with 23Nxf3! was interesting. I'm not quite sure what to make of the final position here so I assume White forfeited. With the Q for 2R and also with an active N and White's king being bad I actually prefer Black, but it's rather drawish.

    [Event "CP.2000.P.00090"]
    [Site "IECG"]
    [Date "2000.10.01"]
    [Round "0"]
    [White "Suesmoller,Volkmar"]
    [Black "Stiepan,Hans Michael"]
    [Result "0-1"]
    [Eco "C06"]
    1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6
    9.exf6 Nxf6 10.Nf3 Bd6 11.0-0 0-0 12.Bf4 Bxf4 13.Nxf4 Ne4 14.Ne2 Rxf3 15.gxf3 Ng5 16.Kh1 e5
    17.dxe5 Nxf3 18.Bxh7+ Kh8 19.Ng1 Ncd4 20.Bd3 Bg4 21.Qc1 Qf8 22.Qe3 Re8 23.Nxf3 Nxf3 24.Rg1 Rxe5
    25.Rxg4 Rxe3 26.fxe3 Qd6 27.Rg2 Ne5 28.Rd1 Qc6 29.Bc2 g6 30.Bb3 Nc4 31.Rdg1 Ne5 0-1

    Another one with 23.Nxf3. 27.Rg3 leads to a draw with no fuss and might be a shade better than 27.Rg2 above.

    [Event "CM.2001.0.00144"]
    [Site "IECG"]
    [Date "2001.05.29"]
    [Round "0"]
    [White "Edighoffer,Harold H"]
    [Black "Evans,Gordon R"]
    [Result "1/2"]
    [Eco "C06"]
    1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.c3 c5 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6
    9.exf6 Nxf6 10.0-0 Bd6 11.Nf3 0-0 12.Bf4 Bxf4 13.Nxf4 Ne4 14.Ne2 Rxf3 15.gxf3 Ng5 16.Kh1 e5
    17.dxe5 Nxf3 18.Bxh7+ Kh8 19.Ng1 Ncd4 20.Bd3 Bg4 21.Qc1 Qf8 22.Qe3 Re8 23.Nxf3 Nxf3 24.Rg1 Rxe5
    25.Rxg4 Rxe3 26.fxe3 Qd6 27.Rg3 Ne5 28.Bf1 Nc4 29.b3 Qe5 30.Rc1 Nd6 31.Bd3 Ne4 32.Rf3 Kh7
    33.Rg1 Kg8 34.Bxe4 Qxe4 35.Rgf1 Qc2 36.Rf8+ Kh7 37.R8f2 Qe4+ 38.Rf3 Qc2 39.R1f2 Qb1+ 40.Kg2 Qg6+
    41.Rg3 Qe4+ 42.Rff3 Qc2+ 43.Kh3 Kg8 44.a3 Qh7+ 45.Kg2 Qc2+ 46.Rf2 Qe4+ 47.Rgf3 Qg6+ 48.Kh1 Qb1+
    49.Rf1 Qxb3 50.e4 Qc4 51.exd5 Qxd5 52.Kg1 b5 53.Rf8+ Kh7 54.R1f3 Qd4+ 55.Kg2 Qg4+ 56.Rg3 Qe4+
    57.Rgf3 Qg4+ 1/2

    So, at the moment it still looks to me like 23.h5 is suspect, but 20.Bd3 is alright for now (I thought I'd refuted 23.Nxf3 before - apparently not.)

  9. #9
    CC International Master JGB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,120
    Have you ever played against 14. Nh5. I like the look of this, with the option of dropping back to g3. This changes the game a bit. (I heard of this idea over the weekend from an insider ((a Gm who had luck with it)) ), it also cuts away a lot of this theory im not liking later on.

  10. #10
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,716
    Quote Originally Posted by JGB
    Have you ever played against 14. Nh5.
    No, but I know it exists and it does get White away from all those long tactical forcing lines that don't seem to lead anywhere but a draw at best anyhow. Don't know if White has made progress on the NCO lines (which again show Black equalising easily, but there would be potential for the better strategic player to outplay the opponent with either colour.)

  11. #11
    CC International Master JGB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,120
    As a player of the French def, as black do you think Nd2 offers more chances that Nc3? Just a question as your a bit of an expert on the whole french thing.

  12. #12
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The multiverse
    Posts
    21,570
    Quote Originally Posted by JGB
    As a player of the French def, as black do you think Nd2 offers more chances that Nc3? Just a question as your a bit of an expert on the whole french thing.
    Isn't that a bit like asking, "which religion is better?" As white, either you're prepared to take on the Winawer, or you're a big girl's blouse.
    So einfach wie mφglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #13
    CC International Master JGB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,120
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Cox
    Isn't that a bit like asking, "which religion is better?" As white, either you're prepared to take on the Winawer, or you're a big girl's blouse.

    that may be true but there is sure a lot of theory in the Winawer, and even Fischer seemed to have problems with it.

  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    13,075
    Quote Originally Posted by JGB
    that may be true but there is sure a lot of theory in the Winawer, and even Fischer seemed to have problems with it.
    as someone who plays both sides of the french quite often, but isnt as good a player as Kevin, I think it is a matter of personal taste as to which is better.

    I think it depends on whether you like the isolated pawn positions that can result from the tarrasch, or if you prefer the potential compromised pawn structures of the winawer. I am a winawer fan mainly, but am starting to play Nd2 a bit more.

  15. #15
    CC International Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,074
    Quote Originally Posted by JGB
    that may be true but there is sure a lot of theory in the Winawer, and even Fischer seemed to have problems with it.
    true, and may I add that even once you get through all the theory the positions you get as White are not necessarily nice ones-often they're downright unclear, which is exactly what your typical Winawerer wants

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •