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  1. #136
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    FWIW it appears that the draw was manually changed in the Open Zonal in rounds 5, 7, 8 and 9.
    Do you have an opinion on whether the changes were correct according to dutch pairing rules?

  2. #137
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    Do you have an opinion on whether the changes were correct according to dutch pairing rules?
    I dont believe the majority were although some may have been.

    Also I just noticed that round 9 of the Womens was a manual pairing on all 7 boards.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.

  3. #138
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    Code:
    No Name                  Feder Loc  Total  1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9  
    
    1  Zhao, Zong-Yuan       NSW   2537 7     16:W  4:W  3:D  2:D  8:W 14:W  6:D  5:D 10:W
    2  Goldenberg, Igor      VIC   2368 6.5   24:W 22:W 19:W  1:D  3:D  5:W  4:L  8:W  6:D
    3  Wang, Puchen          OS    2251 6.5   29:W 23:W  1:D 14:W  2:D  4:D 19:W  6:D  7:D
    4  Smith, Robert W       OS    2285 6.5   17:W  1:L 24:W  8:D  7:W  3:D  2:W 14:W  5:D
    5  Bjelobrk, Igor        NSW   2422 6     10:W 19:L 23:W 20:W  6:W  2:L 11:W  1:D  4:D
    6  Smerdon, David C      VIC   2469 5.5   12:W  8:D  7:D 19:W  5:L  9:W  1:D  3:D  2:D
    7  Lukey, Stephen G      OS    2358 5.5   27:D 25:W  6:D 11:W  4:L  8:D 14:D 20:W  3:D
    8  Feldman, Vladimir     NSW   2275 5     15:W  6:D 26:W  4:D  1:L  7:D  9:W  2:L 14:D
    9  Nakauchi, Gene        QLD   1703 5     25:D 11:D 16:D 21:W 10:W  6:L  8:L 22:W 12:D
    10 Morris, James         VIC   1916 5      5:L 13:D 28:W 26:W  9:L 25:W 16:D 19:W  1:L
    11 Illingworth, Max      NSW   1963 5     14:D  9:D 22:W  7:L 12:D 15:W  5:L 13:D 19:W
    12 Mendes da Costa, Alex NSW   1925 5      6:L 26:L 30:W 17:D 11:D 22:D 21:W 16:W  9:D
    13 Ogada-Osir, Ibrahim   VIC   1941 5     19:L 10:D 15:L 27:D 30:W 23:D 25:W 11:D 20:W
    14 Lane, Gary W          NSW   2452 4.5   11:D 20:W 21:W  3:L 15:W  1:L  7:D  4:L  8:D
    15 Guo-Yuthok, Sherab    ACT   1798 4.5    8:L 28:D 13:W 22:W 14:L 11:L 23:D 27:D 30:W
    16 Kumar, Manoj          OS    1834 4.5    1:L 17:D  9:D 18:D 28:W 24:D 10:D 12:L 26:W
    17 Prasad, Calvin        OS    1762 4.5    4:L 16:D 25:D 12:D 24:L 28:W 22:L 30:W 29:W
    18 Chand, Alvis          OS         4.5   22:L 24:L 27:W 16:D 23:D 20:L 30:W 26:D 28:W
    19 Steadman, Michael     OS    2227 4     13:W  5:W  2:L  6:L 20:W 21:W  3:L 10:L 11:L
    20 Chernih, Nicholas     NSW   2004 4     28:W 14:L 29:W  5:L 19:L 18:W 24:W  7:L 13:L
    21 Fancy, Stuart         OS    2239 4     26:D 27:W 14:L  9:L 29:W 19:L 12:L 28:W 23:D
    22 Fitzpatrick, Andrew   VIC   1879 4     18:W  2:L 11:L 15:L 27:W 12:D 17:W  9:L 25:D
    23 Spiller, Paul         OS    2131 4     30:W  3:L  5:L 29:D 18:D 13:D 15:D 24:D 21:D
    24 Gautam, Asheesh       OS         4      2:L 18:W  4:L 25:D 17:W 16:D 20:L 23:D 27:D
    25 Ilic, Ilija           NSW   2150 4      9:D  7:L 17:D 24:D 26:W 10:L 13:L 29:W 22:D
    26 Sharma, Roneel        OS         3.5   21:D 12:W  8:L 10:L 25:L 29:W 27:D 18:D 16:L
    27 Goundar, Sanmogam     OS         3.5    7:D 21:L 18:L 13:D 22:L 30:W 26:D 15:D 24:D
    28 Sikivou, Taione       OS         2.5   20:L 15:D 10:L 30:W 16:L 17:L 29:W 21:L 18:L
    29 Arora, Neel           OS         1.5    3:L 30:W 20:L 23:D 21:L 26:L 28:L 25:L 17:L
    30 Ong, Sterling         OS         0     23:L 29:L 12:L 28:L 13:L 27:L 18:L 17:L 15:L
    Last edited by Bill Gletsos; 12-05-2007 at 01:29 PM.
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.

  4. #139
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    Code:
    Place Name                  Feder Rtg Loc  Score Progr.
    
      1   Zhao, Zong-Yuan       NSW       2537 7       36.0
     2-4  Goldenberg, Igor      VIC       2368 6.5     36.0
          Wang, Puchen          OS        2251 6.5     35.5
          Smith, Robert W       OS        2285 6.5     31.5
      5   Bjelobrk, Igor        NSW       2422 6       31.5
     6-7  Smerdon, David C      VIC       2469 5.5     29.5
          Lukey, Stephen G      OS        2358 5.5     28.0
    8-13  Feldman, Vladimir     NSW       2275 5       28.5
          Nakauchi, Gene        QLD       1703 5       25.5
          Morris, James         VIC       1916 5       24.5
          Illingworth, Max      NSW       1963 5       24.0
          Mendes da Costa, Alex NSW       1925 5       20.0
          Ogada-Osir, Ibrahim   VIC       1941 5       19.0
    14-18 Lane, Gary W          NSW       2452 4.5     26.5
          Guo-Yuthok, Sherab    ACT       1798 4.5     20.5
          Kumar, Manoj          OS        1834 4.5     20.0
          Prasad, Calvin        OS        1762 4.5     17.5
          Chand, Alvis          OS             4.5     17.5
    19-25 Steadman, Michael     OS        2227 4       26.0
          Chernih, Nicholas     NSW       2004 4       23.0
          Fancy, Stuart         OS        2239 4       20.0
          Fitzpatrick, Andrew   VIC       1879 4       19.5
          Spiller, Paul         OS        2131 4       19.5
          Gautam, Asheesh       OS             4       19.5
          Ilic, Ilija           NSW       2150 4       18.5
    26-27 Sharma, Roneel        OS             3.5     19.0
          Goundar, Sanmogam     OS             3.5     14.5
     28   Sikivou, Taione       OS             2.5     13.0
     29   Arora, Neel           OS             1.5     11.0
     30   Ong, Sterling         OS             0        0.0
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.

  5. #140
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Code:
    No Name                      Feder Loc  Total  1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9  
    
    1  Berezina - Feldman, Irina NSW   2192 7.5   11:W  6:W  2:W  3:D  5:W  4:D 10:W  8:W  7:D
    2  Jule, Alexandra           QLD   1612 6.5   12:W 13:W  1:L  9:W  3:D  8:W  5:W  4:D  6:D
    3  Maroroa, Sue              OS         6      5:W 10:D  8:W  1:D  2:D  7:D  4:D  6:D  9:W
    4  Smith, Vivian             OS    1619 6      9:D  7:L 12:W 10:W  6:W  1:D  3:D  2:D 13:W
    5  Harris, Rebecca           NSW   1630 6      3:L 12:W  7:W  6:W  1:L  9:W  2:L 11:W 14:W
    6  Flores, Imelda            OS         5      7:W  1:L 13:W  5:L  4:L 14:W 11:W  3:D  2:D
    7  Lane, Nancy L             NSW   1855 5      6:L  4:W  5:L 11:W 12:W  3:D  8:L 14:W  1:D
    8  Fairley, Natasha          OS    1605 5     10:L 14:W  3:L 13:W  9:W  2:L  7:W  1:L 12:W
    9  Lyons, Kieran C           QLD   1389 4.5    4:D 11:W 10:W  2:L  8:L  5:L 14:W 13:W  3:L
    10 Wu, Shirley               OS         4.5    8:W  3:D  9:L  4:L 14:W 13:W  1:L 12:W 11:L
    11 Sukhu, Gloria             OS         4      1:L  9:L 14:W  7:L 13:W 12:W  6:L  5:L 10:W
    12 Antrea, Frentina          OS         2      2:L  5:L  4:L 14:W  7:L 11:L 13:W 10:L  8:L
    13 Ram, Rachna               OS         1     14:W  2:L  6:L  8:L 11:L 10:L 12:L  9:L  4:L
    14 Morris, India             VIC        0     13:L  8:L 11:L 12:L 10:L  6:L  9:L  7:L  5:L
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.

  6. #141
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Code:
    Place Name                      Feder Rtg Loc  Score Progr.
    
      1   Berezina - Feldman, Irina NSW       2192 7.5     39.5
      2   Jule, Alexandra           QLD       1612 6.5     34.0
     3-5  Maroroa, Sue              OS             6       31.0
          Smith, Vivian             OS        1619 6       28.0
          Harris, Rebecca           NSW       1630 6       28.0
     6-8  Flores, Imelda            OS             5       24.5
          Lane, Nancy L             NSW       1855 5       23.5
          Fairley, Natasha          OS        1605 5       23.0
    9-10  Lyons, Kieran C           QLD       1389 4.5     24.5
          Wu, Shirley               OS             4.5     24.0
     11   Sukhu, Gloria             OS             4       17.0
     12   Antrea, Frentina          OS             2        9.0
     13   Ram, Rachna               OS             1        9.0
     14   Morris, India             VIC            0        0.0
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.

  7. #142
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    I note that on the standings list on the website they are ranking them in the order of sum of opponents ratings less the lowest rated opponent.

    Code:
    Place Name                  Feder Rtg  Loc  Title Score Rtg Sum Progr.
    
      1   Zhao, Zong-Yuan       AUS   2476      im    7       18596   36.0
     2-4  Wang, Puchen          NZL   2322      fm    6.5     18642   35.5
          Goldenberg, Igor      AUS   2388      fm    6.5     18570   36.0
          Smith, Robert         NZL   2294      fm    6.5     18535   31.5
    If this is correct then Puchen Wang gets the IM title and not Igor Goldenberg.
    Last edited by Bill Gletsos; 12-05-2007 at 04:51 PM.
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  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    If this is correct then Puchen Wang gets the IM title and not Igor Goldenberg.
    It's odd that the rest of the players are not ranked the same way (e.g the FM candidates)..

    I think Goldenberg will be over 2400 on the next list based on his performance here, so if he has missed the title he still has good prospects of getting the title the old fashioned way..

  9. #144
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    The website is ranking the players in the order of sum of opponents ratings less the lowest rated opponent.

    They could be basing this on the following from D.I.01:

    5.1.6 (GA `95) If a Zonal qualifying tournament produces a tie among more than two players and the right to participate in the next stage of the cycle depends on the finishing order of these players, the tie shall be broken according to the standard tie-break regulations, as follows:

    5.1.7 For Swiss tournaments where the players involved have all played only against rated opponents, after eliminating the lowest rated opponent, find the sum of opponents` ratings. The highest total wins. If still tied, eliminate the rating of the next lowest rated opponent(s) until a decision is possible.

    For other Swiss tournaments, the sum of progressive scores. The highest total wins. If still tied, deduct the first round score, and if necessary the second round and so on.
    This section however applies to the right to proceed into the next level of the competition. Given that Zhao was the winner this section does not apply and has no basis in the splitting of ties for the awarding of titles.

    They could also be basing it on c.06.11:
    7. Choice of Tiebreak System

    The choice of the Tiebreak System to be used in a tournament shall be decided in advance taking into account the type of the tournament (Swiss, Round Robin, Teams, etc.) and the special structure of players expected to participate in the tournament. For instance the application of Tiebreak rules using the ratings of players is inappropriate in tournaments where the ratings are not available or not consistent or not necessarily correct (e.g. Junior/Senior tournaments)
    Only one type of the five categories described above should be used for a given event. For example: using Sum of Progressive Score + Buchholz would be incorrect.
    For different types of tournaments the Tiebreak Rules recommended are as listed below:
    (a) Individual Round Robin Tournaments:
    Direct encounter
    Playoff
    Number of games played with Black
    Koya System
    Sonneborn-Berger
    Number of won games

    (b) Team Round Robin System:
    Games points
    Match points
    Direct encounter
    Playoff
    Sonneborn-Berger

    (c) Individual Swiss Systems (all players have consistent ratings):
    Direct encounter
    Tournament Performance Rating
    Average rating of opponents
    Playoff

    (d) Individual Swiss Systems (where not all the ratings are consistent):
    Direct encounter
    Sum of progressive score
    Buchholz
    Playoff
    Sonneborn-Berger
    Won games
    Games played with Black

    (e) Team Swiss Systems:
    Games points
    Match points
    Direct encounter
    Playoff
    Buchholz
    Sonneborn-Berger
    Note in there it says Only one type of the five categories described above should be used for a given event

    This refers to the 5 categories described earlier in c.06.11.
    i.e. Tiebreak Rules using the Player’s own results
    Tiebreak Rules using a team’s own results
    Tiebreak Rules using the Results of Opponents
    Tiebreak Rules using Ratings
    Playoff

    Now nowhere in c.06.11 does it mention sum of opponents ratings.

    The use of average of opponents ratings is mentioned and is part of "Tiebreak Rules using Ratings".
    Sum of progressive scores is mentioned in "Tiebreak Rules using the Player’s own results".

    In the quoted part above where it says "Individual Swiss Systems (all players have consistent ratings):" it means all players in the event must have consistent ratings".

    Since all players in the event are not FIDE rated then the section "Individual Swiss Systems (where not all the ratings are consistent)" should be used.

    In that case the standard is sum of progressive scores.

    In fact in previous Oceania Zonals it had always been stated that the tiebreak was sum of progressive scores.
    Last edited by Bill Gletsos; 12-05-2007 at 05:27 PM.
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  10. #145
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax
    It's odd that the rest of the players are not ranked the same way (e.g the FM candidates)..
    Extremely.

    In fact the method of tie break must be consistent for all parts of the event.

    Given sum of opponents ratings cannot be used for players who have played non FIDE rated players then it cannot be used for determing the IM title

    Sum of progressive scores should be used.
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  11. #146
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    Hello, everyone,

    Firstly congratulations to the title winners.......secondly, has it been confirmed who are the title winners?

    There seems to be some doubt as to who has received the IM title in the open section; can anyone confirm whether Puchen Wang or Igor Goldenberg is the recipient. Additionally, are the two players, James Morris and Gene Nakauchi both confirmed as the recipients of the FM titles.

    On a happier, less uncertain note, Well Done WIM Alex Jule, a solid performance for second, and congratulations!!

    As I had said Congratulations to all the title winners; I am very much wanting to confirm the certainty of James Morris' award of title most of all, as I am friends with him and his family, who I hope have all had a good time.

    Finally, I hope that you enjoyed playing India, given being asked to do so at the last moment, I think it was wonderful of you to play to help the tournament continue successfully.

    Take care and God Bless, Macavity

  12. #147
    Account Compromised
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    Who got the WFM titles?

  13. #148
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Nearly all discussion about whether or not Zonal titles are soft has taken a walk over here.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    I note that on the standings list on the website they are ranking them in the order of sum of opponents ratings less the lowest rated opponent.

    Code:
    Place Name                  Feder Rtg  Loc  Title Score Rtg Sum Progr.
    
      1   Zhao, Zong-Yuan       AUS   2476      im    7       18596   36.0
     2-4  Wang, Puchen          NZL   2322      fm    6.5     18642   35.5
          Goldenberg, Igor      AUS   2388      fm    6.5     18570   36.0
          Smith, Robert         NZL   2294      fm    6.5     18535   31.5
    If this is correct then Puchen Wang gets the IM title and not Igor Goldenberg.
    this is confusing....Igor's Buhg. is higher (36 vs. 35)
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  15. #150
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBaron
    this is confusing....Igor's Buhg. is higher (36 vs. 35)
    If you had been following the thread it wouldnt have been as this was expalined in the thread.

    Firstly the 36 V 35.5 is the sum of progressive scores not their Buchholz.

    As noted in the post you quoted the standings are not in progressive order but are in the order of sum of opponents ratings less the lowest opponents rating.

    Given it is listed before the progressive it is the primary tiebreak shown.

    On the basis of sum of opponents ratings less the lowest opponents rating Puchen is ranked higher than Igor.
    Last edited by Bill Gletsos; 13-05-2007 at 07:31 PM.
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