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Thread: Applying 6.10

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    Applying 6.10

    If in a game Player A has a king and a queen, and Player B has a king and pawn. If player A makes the move Queen take pawn, but his flag falls before he presses his clock and completes the move is it a draw or does player A lose on time?
    Scott

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    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy
    If in a game Player A has a king and a queen, and Player B has a king and pawn. If player A makes the move Queen take pawn, but his flag falls before he presses his clock and completes the move is it a draw or does player A lose on time?
    He loses on time.

    Edit:Based on discussions later in the thread with Rincewind I concede that my above response is incorrect.

    The position is drawn.
    Last edited by Bill Gletsos; 08-09-2006 at 03:10 AM.
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    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    He loses on time.
    Bill, are you sure on this?

    First I assume Freddy means the move was made (as defined by 4.6) but not completed by pressing the clock.

    If the player did not have the queen then it would be a draw provided the move was made before the flag fell. It seems inconsistent to me then that the posession of the queen should be to that player's disadvantage.

    Since the move was made (but not complete) my interpretation would be that the made move stands and therefore the clamiant does not have a series of legal moves to mate and hence the game is drawn.

    However the scenario does not sound so bizarre that it has not already been discussed at length in Gjissen's column or elsewhere. Perhaps you know of such a discussion.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  5. #5
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Bill, are you sure on this?
    Absolutely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    First I assume Freddy means the move was made (as defined by 4.6) but not completed by pressing the clock.

    If the player did not have the queen then it would be a draw provided the move was made before the flag fell.
    The postion as described by Freddy would still be drawn even if the queen was on the board if the flag fell after the pawn capture as player B then only has the lone King.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    It seems inconsistent to me then that the posession of the queen should be to that player's disadvantage.

    Since the move was made (but not complete) my interpretation would be that the made move stands and therefore the clamiant does not have a series of legal moves to mate and hence the game is drawn.
    Incorrect. The move is not complete. As such the player still has the pawn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    However the scenario does not sound so bizarre that it has not already been discussed at length in Gjissen's column or elsewhere. Perhaps you know of such a discussion.
    I think he has but cannot cite the relevant column.
    Last edited by Bill Gletsos; 08-09-2006 at 12:17 AM.
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  6. #6
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Absolutely.
    Incorrect. The move is not complete. As such the player still has the pawn.
    I think he has but cannot cite the relevant column.
    Do you agree that if the queen was not on the board and the player took the remaining pawn with his king and the flag fell before clocking that the game would be drawn?
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

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    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Do you agree that if the queen was not on the board and the player took the remaining pawn with his king and the flag fell before clocking that the game would be drawn?
    No.
    The move is still incomplete. As such the opponent still has the pawn and thus can mate.
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    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    No.
    The move is still incomplete. As such the opponent still has the pawn and thus can mate.
    Bill, this is not correct. According to 9.6 when a dead position arises this immediately ends the game and there is no need to clock. (refer guert65.pdf Answer 2.2)

    I remain unconvinced by your argument therefore because the move was incomplete that the claimant is still in possession of the pawn. I believe since the move was "made" the pawn is gone and the position on the board stands, notwithstanding that the move was not completed before the flag fall.

    6.10 says

    Except where Articles 5.1 or one of the Articles 5.2 (a), (b) and (c) apply, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player`s king by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled counterplay.
    (emphasis added)

    I agree the move was not completed however as the move was made the position is such that the claimant has no path to mate and therefore the game should be drawn.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  9. #9
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Bill, this is not correct.
    Agreed. Although I had considered 5.2(b) in Freddy's scenario I had overlooked it in yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    According to 9.6 when a dead position arises this immediately ends the game and there is no need to clock. (refer guert65.pdf Answer 2.2)
    I cant see any mention of 9.6 in in geurt65.pdf.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I remain unconvinced by your argument therefore because the move was incomplete that the claimant is still in possession of the pawn. I believe since the move was "made" the pawn is gone and the position on the board stands, notwithstanding that the move was not completed before the flag fall.

    6.10 says

    Except where Articles 5.1 or one of the Articles 5.2 (a), (b) and (c) apply, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player`s king by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled counterplay.
    (emphasis added)

    I agree the move was not completed however as the move was made the position is such that the claimant has no path to mate and therefore the game should be drawn.
    In the case of K V K+P where the King captures the pawn before the flag falls but before the clock is stopped then the game is drawn under Article 5.2 (b) and also 9.6.

    However in Freddy's example 5.2(b) does not apply nor does 9.6.
    Thus A loses.
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  10. #10
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Agreed. Although I had considered 5.2(b) in Freddy's scenario I had overlooked it in yours.I cant see any mention of 9.6 in in geurt65.pdf.
    Sorry, my typo, it is guert64.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    In the case of K V K+P where the King captures the pawn before the flag falls but before the clock is stopped then the game is drawn under Article 5.2 (b) and also 9.6.
    Ok, so we agree on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    However in Freddy's example 5.2(b) does not apply nor does 9.6.
    Thus A loses.
    Your misunderstand my argument here Bill. I didn't say 9.6 applied but the the salient feature is the wording and in particular the use of the concept of a "position".

    9.6 says
    The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing this position was legal.

    Now if we agree about the case without the queen then you would have to conceed that the move does not have to be completed, only made, for a position to be reached, since 9.6 can be applied before a player clocks.

    Comparing this with the working of 10.6
    Except where Articles 5.1 or one of the Articles 5.2 (a), (b) and (c) apply, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player`s king by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled counterplay.

    Therefore my interpretation is player not completing the move determines whether 10.6 is applied but in applying this article, it is the position that determines whether the game is awarded as a win or a draw to the claimant. The fact that the move was not completed is irrelevent in this consideration since in 9.6 we have a clear example of a made but incomplete move effecting a change of position.
    Therefore, the game is a draw.
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  11. #11
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Sorry, my typo, it is guert64.pdf
    Ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Your misunderstand my argument here Bill. I didn't say 9.6 applied but the the salient feature is the wording and in particular the use of the concept of a "position".
    I didnt misunderstand it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    9.6 says
    The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing this position was legal.

    Now if we agree about the case without the queen then you would have to conceed that the move does not have to be completed, only made, for a position to be reached, since 9.6 can be applied before a player clocks.
    5.2(b) says The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent`s king with any series of legal moves.
    As such 5.2(b) does not apply when one player can checkmate. Clearly the same condition is implicitly true in 9.6 otherwise a player could claim a draw as soon as he was left with a lone King irrespective of what material his opponent had.
    It is for this reason I dismissed 9.6 as not being applicable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Comparing this with the working of 10.6
    Except where Articles 5.1 or one of the Articles 5.2 (a), (b) and (c) apply, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player`s king by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled counterplay.

    Therefore my interpretation is player not completing the move determines whether 10.6 is applied but in applying this article, it is the position that determines whether the game is awarded as a win or a draw to the claimant. The fact that the move was not completed is irrelevent in this consideration since in 9.6 we have a clear example of a made but incomplete move effecting a change of position.
    Therefore, the game is a draw.
    I concede you are right and I am wrong and that Freddy's original position is drawn.

    However I dont agree with your reasoning.

    Neither 5.2(b) nor 9.6 apply.
    In fact after the Queen capture of the pawn the game is not immediately ended under any section of Articles 5 or 9 (as was the case in your K V K+P scenario) or any other Article.
    The move is not complete as the players flag has fallen before he stopped the clock.

    The only relevant question therefore is:
    Does the capture count.

    If it does then the game is drawn.
    If it doesnt then the the player with the pawn wins.

    It wont count if the pawn is still on the board or the rook isnt on e5.
    It will count if the move has been made and only the clock hasnt been presseed.

    Now when I was considering Freddy's original question I was trying to remember where I had seen this sort of thing discussed and was recalling the position
    FEN Viewer

    where Black plays Rxe5+.

    This position is actually in Reuben's handbook in reference to 6.8(a).
    Unfortunately I remembered it incorrectly.
    The move intended was Rxe5+ but was not made.

    Reuben says:
    "Black touches the pawn on e5 but before he can complete the move, his flag falls. Perhaps the rate of play is 40 moves in 2 hours and this was move 39. He loses even though the rule will require him to play 1...Rxe5. He has not completed his move. If you have any doubt over this matter consider it to be a race between the clock and thinking time."

    Now Reuben uses the words "completed his move' when he should be saying made his move since Article 6.8(a) makes it clear that a move is only completed after the player stops his clock.

    In Reubens example even if Rxe5+ was played and the clock stopped beforthe flag falls 5.2(b) and 9.6 still dont apply.

    The lesson from this is simple.
    I should have actually considered the actual ramifications of the position rather than trying to base my answer on a mis-remembered example.
    Iwont make that mistake again.

    I have edited my original response in post #2 to save others who may not wish to read thru all the following posts.
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  12. #12
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    I concede you are right and I am wrong and that Freddy's original position is drawn.
    Well I'm glad about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    However I dont agree with your reasoning.
    From what you say below I still think there is a misunderstanding since "your" reasoning is exactly my reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Neither 5.2(b) nor 9.6 apply.
    In fact after the Queen capture of the pawn the game is not immediately ended under any section of Articles 5 or 9 (as was the case in your K V K+P scenario) or any other Article.
    The move is not complete as the players flag has fallen before he stopped the clock.
    Yep I agree with all that. Since one player still has a path to mate and so 9.6 cannot be applied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    The only relevant question therefore is:
    Does the capture count.

    If it does then the game is drawn.
    If it doesnt then the the player with the pawn wins.
    Yep.

    To reiterate since it still seems unclear I never said 9.6 applied. It was relevant for two reasons.

    Firstly there is an argument from natural justice. Had the player not had a queen 9.6 would have applied and therefore the game would have been immediately drawn. So it seems unfair to me to effectively penalise someone for having a queen. However, this is just an inductive support argument and not the main thrust of the discussion.

    The second consideration is exactly as you say above, "does the capture count". I interpreted your original take on it that if the move is not completed then the capture doesn't count. My contrary position was once the move is made the position has been changed, even before the move is completed, and therefore the capture does count. In this context 9.6 provided an example of a made move affecting the position even before the move is complete.

    I believe my style of argument by appeal to natural justice and using examples from other laws, which while not directly applicable can still be relevant, is supported by the preface which states in part:

    The Laws of Chess cannot cover all possible situations that may arise during a game, nor can they regulate all administrative questions. Where cases are not precisely regulated by an Article of the Laws, it should be possible to reach a correct decision by studying analogous situations, which are discussed in the Laws. The Laws assume that arbiters have the necessary competence, sound judgement and absolute objectivity. Too detailed a rule might deprive the arbiter of his freedom of judgement and thus prevent him from finding the solution to a problem dictated by fairness, logic and special factors. (emphasis added)

    In short, I'm glad we now agree. Also thanks to Freddy for supply such an interesting scenario. I was suprised that I could not find this exact case discussed somewhere by Guert.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  13. #13
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I agree the move was not completed however as the move was made the position is such that the claimant has no path to mate and therefore the game should be drawn.
    I agree with this - it's a draw.

  14. #14
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    Firstly there is an argument from natural justice. Had the player not had a queen 9.6 would have applied and therefore the game would have been immediately drawn. So it seems unfair to me to effectively penalise someone for having a queen. However, this is just an inductive support argument and not the main thrust of the discussion.
    If in the endgame with K+Q+B V K+Q+P the player with only the pawn captures the Queen and has his queen recaptured leaving K+B V K+P and his flag falls he he loses because The playert with the B can still mate by the underpromoting of pawn. There hardly seems any natural justice in that but thems the rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    The second consideration is exactly as you say above, "does the capture count". I interpreted your original take on it that if the move is not completed then the capture doesn't count. My contrary position was once the move is made the position has been changed, even before the move is completed, and therefore the capture does count. In this context 9.6 provided an example of a made move affecting the position even before the move is complete.
    The answer is far simpler and you dont have to even look at complicating it that way.
    If the move has been made and all requirements of the move have been met (i.e. for a capture the captured piece removed and the capturing piece released on the square) and the move is legal then any subsequent considerations are based on that position irrespective of whether the flag is has fallen or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    I believe my style of argument by appeal to natural justice and using examples from other laws, which while not directly applicable can still be relevant, is supported by the preface which states in part:

    The Laws of Chess cannot cover all possible situations that may arise during a game, nor can they regulate all administrative questions. Where cases are not precisely regulated by an Article of the Laws, it should be possible to reach a correct decision by studying analogous situations, which are discussed in the Laws. The Laws assume that arbiters have the necessary competence, sound judgement and absolute objectivity. Too detailed a rule might deprive the arbiter of his freedom of judgement and thus prevent him from finding the solution to a problem dictated by fairness, logic and special factors. (emphasis added)
    If I want a lesson in sucking eggs you will be the first one I call.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind
    In short, I'm glad we now agree. Also thanks to Freddy for supply such an interesting scenario. I was suprised that I could not find this exact case discussed somewhere by Guert.
    Check out geurt81.pdf first page.
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  15. #15
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    If in the endgame with K+Q+B V K+Q+P the player with only the pawn captures the Queen and has his queen recaptured leaving K+B V K+P and his flag falls he he loses because The playert with the B can still mate by the underpromoting of pawn. There hardly seems any natural justice in that but thems the rules.
    That position is not analogous since there is the consideration of what the pawn might promote to. There is no such situation in the scenario we are considering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    The answer is far simpler and you dont have to even look at complicating it that way.
    I wasn't complicating it I was providing justifying my position with an argument by analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    If the move has been made and all requirements of the move have been met (i.e. for a capture the captured piece removed and the capturing piece released on the square) and the move is legal then any subsequent considerations are based on that position irrespective of whether the flag is has fallen or not.
    I agree with this assessment and at first you did not. 9.6 provides weight to this position even though it is not directly applicable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    If I want a lesson in sucking eggs you will be the first one I call.
    Well in paragraph 1 you say seem to discount the appeal to natural justice, however the I interprete the preface's reference to fairness as supporting this sort of argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    Check out geurt81.pdf first page.
    Yes I did see that but that does answer the question here as to whether a move made, but not complete, stands.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

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