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  1. #1
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    Spain terrorist bombing

    The spanish people have in a surprise move voted in the Socialist government after the bombing. The Socilaist government has said that they may withdraw spanish troups from Iraq

    I felt so angry and mad when I heard that. This is exactly what Osama and the terrorist want. They bomb and 200 people die and the conservative spanish government that supported Bush, Blair and Howard lose the elections.

    Has no one learnt from Munich that appeasement does not work???

    Now the Islamic terrorist will bomb Australia so that latham can win, and then try to bomb USA so that Bush will lose and Kerry win

    I just hope that the american and australian public are not intimidated and stand by our leaders.

    Shame Spain Shame. You could have hung your head proud that you took partin the anti-terror alliance of president Bush, but now you have made teh freedom loving world ashamed of Spain and encouraged the terrorists. I felt so sick to my stomach when I heard the results. I thought that the bombs would reinforce the stand of teh Conservative government and give them a resounding win

    SHAME SHAME SHAME
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  2. #2
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    You could hardly admonish Spain for have free and fair elections. I have no idea about Spanish politics but historically (at least in the 20th century) Spain has had quite active socialist movements. So I don't know how much of a surpise the win for the left was. No one does I guess.

    But had the bombings causes the conservative party to be re-elected then that would been as much of a travesty as the other way round. The point is the attack and the election are inseparably intertwined so trying to discuss the elect in absence of the attack is futile at best.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  3. #3
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    I expected no less from you CL, but I thought it was a great result and one of the more interesting events in world electoral history.

    The government went to war knowing that a vast majority of their population opposed involvement. Then when the bombing occurred, they didn't want to admit it was al Qaeda because that would give credence to the idea that supporting the war had pointlessly made Spain a target. So instead they tried to hang it on ETA even though all the available facts pointed towards al-Q. The public rightly sensed that they had a craven government that would deceive them about one of the most terrible events in their nation's history for political gain, and threw the jokers out.

    Why should anyone stand by leaders like that? Maybe there's a lesson for Howard, Bush and Blair - if you must go to war, don't hide the risks involved. From what I've seen, it's specifically the way the government misrepresented the situation - a remarkably insensitive and stupid thing to do - that made the voters most angry.

    Mind you, if Australian voters are ever that on-the-ball I shall be pleasantly surprised.
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  4. #4
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Mind you, if Australian voters are ever that on-the-ball I shall be pleasantly surprised.
    Not to mention presently surprised. We're up for a federal election this year aren't we?
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  5. #5
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Oddly enough I wrote "presently" the first time around by mistake, then corrected it.

    Yes the day of John Howard's increasingly likely doom draws near. One of the few cases where I fail to admire a fellow swindler, hopefully no more Tampas in the hat.
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  6. #6
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Oddly enough I wrote "presently" the first time around by mistake, then corrected it.
    I thought I'd read it as presently the first time I read your message. I assumed the pun was intentional and was replying to voice my approval. Then when I replied the quote came back with pleasantly and I assume my eyes were playing tricks on me so I suggested the pun instead.

    What a tangled web we weave.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  7. #7
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    but this means that the islamic terrorists won

    before the bombing the conservatives were winning. They said that it was a very surprising win by the Socialists and that this happened due to the bombing

    That means that the Spanish people caved in to blackmail and voted the conservative government out, so that they can stop any further bombing by the Islamic terror groups.

    In Isreal and UK (remember world war 2) the bombings would have solidified support for the government in power, and lead to a crushing win for the government that is against the terrorists. In the USA, Bush won the 2002 mid year elections easily on the basis of what the terrorists did in 9/11.

    Yet spanish people showed today that they are a bunch of cowardly appeasers, and that loyalty and courage are things that Spain lacks - unlike the brave british and isreali civilian population

    All this means also is that Osama will think his plans work and start to bomb Australia and Uk and Poland and USA and ISreal. This result has made Australia less safe - thanks a lot you cowardly spanish voters.

    What are the implications for Howard and Bush from this? I think that we are different to Spain and that ifd there is any terror attacks here or in the USA, we will not fall into the terrorist trap and vote for Kerry and latham. In fact a terror attack here would lead to the opposite outcome to what the terrorists intend
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  8. #8
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chesslover
    In Isreal and UK (remember world war 2) the bombings would have solidified support for the government in power, and lead to a crushing win for the government that is against the terrorists. In the USA, Bush won the 2002 mid year elections easily on the basis of what the terrorists did in 9/11.
    Not sure you analysis is entirely accurate. With Israel for example a good proportion of the poulation is strongly in favour of zionism so anti-zionistic protests are going to ni general galvanise support for the hard-liners.

    In the case of WWII the differences are so many it is hard to know where to begin. Perhaps you should look at the UK governments attempts to prosecute so so-called terrorists (like the Guildford Four, for example) for evidence of their record on fair and frank representation of the facts to the population at large - and in general, the support such terrorist attacks (as the Guildford pub bombings were) lend to the incumbent government when the truth becomes known.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  9. #9
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chesslover
    but this means that the islamic terrorists won
    No, it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by chesslover
    That means that the Spanish people caved in to blackmail . . .
    Again, it doesn't mean that at all. The PP behaved terribly. The Spanish people saw through that and voted accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by chesslover
    Yet spanish people showed today that they are a bunch of cowardly appeasers, and that loyalty and courage are things that Spain lacks - unlike the brave british and isreali civilian population
    I'm a regular over at the Spanish Club - to play chess with a coupla mates. (I happened to have been there last Sunday when they had the anti-terror rally). You're welcome to come along with us next time so you can say that to their faces. Are you brave enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by chesslover
    This result has made Australia less safe -
    So you're disagreeing with your beloved PM, Johnnie H., then eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by chesslover
    . . . thanks a lot you cowardly spanish voters.
    Oh you are just so sensitive, ain't ya?

    AR

  10. #10
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    I heard a report that said before the bombing the Spanish government was heading to victory a vote of close to if not over 50%, they got 37% of the vote. It is also my understanding that the war was even more unpopular than in Australia. I think I heard a figure of 90% disapproval for the Spanish involvement in the war. I think the government lost because of two reasons.
    1. The Spanish people were angry at the war but they put issues that effected them on a day to day basis ahead of it. The bombing brought the issue to top priority so it effected alot more peoples votes.
    2. The Spanish government gets a 0/10 for the way they handled the bombing and this made a lot of the Spanish people very angry.

    Which of these two reasons was the primary reason for the Spanish people to change their votes I don't know.

    I think although there are some similarities between the situation in Spain and Australia, there are some big differences. The Australian government has no ETA which it can try and blame so will not be caught out like the Spanish government was. Also I doubt the Australian government will be heading for as easy a victory as the Spanish government was. Assuming the bombing in Spain was done to change the Spainish government and get the Spainish troops out of Iraq, I don't necessary think it means that we are likely to targetted. I say this because the government might be heading for defeat anyway so bombing Australia might not be necessary to change the government. Also Iraq may well be under some form of self government by then which might limit the risk to Australia.
    Scott

  11. #11
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    the australian voters in the past have shown that in times of insecurity, they stay with the government ie tampa, refugees and september 11. An attack on australia around the time of the federal election could actually see the coalition government returned to power, instead of being kicked out. An attack like the one in spain would give John Howard the ammunition and air time he needs to take the heat out of Mark Latham and health,education etc.

    Once again the focus would get back to security and defence. Attacking australia with the purpose of changing the government would make no sense at this time.

    In response to cl's claim about the spanish ppl voting out the government, they should be congratulated not critisised. As the pre polling was showing, the government was going to be returned, then the madrid bombings occurred and the government was not truthful to the voters, so the voters kicked out the government. So the voters deserved to be congratulated for buying the spin of the government.

    Could the aussie voters be that intelligent i doubt it. i see the australian voters as perferring a government that lies to the ppl and tells them that everything is fine, than a government that tells them the truth and tells the australian ppl that we are not doing well.

  12. #12
    CC Grandmaster arosar's Avatar
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  13. #13
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chesslover
    but this means that the islamic terrorists won
    Yes, but as an unexpected bonus. Had the government not misled its people over the cause of the bombings, had the government taken a braver stand, it may well have scraped home.

    That means that the Spanish people caved in to blackmail and voted the conservative government out, so that they can stop any further bombing by the Islamic terror groups.
    That's simplistic for the reasons mentioned above.

    I hope there wasn't too big a caving-in-to-the-blackmail element in the vote. That would be silly, because we really don't know how much al-Qaeda want before they stop bombing.

    Yet spanish people showed today that they are a bunch of cowardly appeasers, and that loyalty and courage are things that Spain lacks
    And that's just silly.
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  14. #14
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    Alexander Downer has asked the Spanish Government not to withdraw troops from Iraq as it would be seen as a victory for terrorists. Let us hope that the Spanish Government listens to the OFFICIAL views of the Australian Government on this matter

    Would the British people behave like the Spanish did??? After all the IRA bombs and attacks, the British people and the British Government have both refused to pull out from Northern Ireland. I hope the Spanish people can look in their mirror in the morning and feel proud for what they did.

    The Socialists were trailing in the polls before the bomb attack and after that they surged to win as they had said they would bring back the troops from Iraq. What message does this send to the terrorists???

    Simple - bomb civilians in the West and teh Government will be defeated and they will withdraw troops. Alexander Downer gets it, why cannot some people here get it??

    But I think the way Howard and Downer attacked the Police Cheifs today for saying iraq made Australia more of a target was bad. Lateline said Kelty put ut a statement saying he was quoted out of context
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  15. #15
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    CL, you keep repeating the same line over and over and haven't paid any attention to my comments about the government trying to dishonestly hang it on ETA being a bigger factor in their downfall than the policy differences involved. I have to say that while we don't know for sure, my view seemed to be the prevailing one in a range of media commentary I read today.
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