View Poll Results: Regarding this BB:

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  • I think I could be more civil.

    5 22.73%
  • I think some posters could be more civil.

    13 59.09%
  • I think some mods could be more civil.

    12 54.55%
  • I think the mods apply some penalties too harshly.

    5 22.73%
  • I am perfectly happy the way things are now.

    4 18.18%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #1
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Regarding the behaviour of some BB members

    There used to be a thread called 'Regarding the behaviour of some BB members' that has vanished now, but anyway... lately... the question is why do some people behave as they do?

    Sometimes it seems to me, that this site should be called postswars.org rather than its current name... it's like someone came along and made the rule that civility is unwelcome here.

    For those angry ones, is it because you come here to vent frustrations, or do you genuinely enjoy insulting people and being insulted yourself? Do you like this board pictured as a cesspool of jagged words spraying the blood of misguided arguments and hapless comments? There really are boards where this behaviour is enjoyable to its participants and I don't question it. But does it belong here? I don't know.

    Like, this kind of stuff used to go on before and all but it's never been this bad. There used to be the Bill vs. Matt, Bill vs. Cat stuff on the board and it was all a laugh but it's gone outside and now Matt's banned from the NSWCA. The sour remarks on this BB now cause a stench that seeps through the pores of the chess community and permeates to the outside.

    Is it, because the two most active moderators are also the ones who seem to enjoy antagonistic verbal stoushes the most? Are they to blame? Or is it simply posters in general who have adopted this impatience with anyone who seems the slightest bit out of line with their own ideals and spew out a barrage of insults that most would only reserve for troglodytes and trollops?

    But what do I know, you tell me. Are you happy with the behaviour of the posters and the mods here or aren't you? Just curious.

    Lastly, if you want an example of a poster who I think is a perfect role model, it's White Elephant - his posts are interesting, informative and if he does feel the need to disagree with someone he does it in a civil manner.


    P.S. The one problem with the poll is, there are some people who have stopped posting altogether and thus cannot vote. Of those, there are certainly some who have left because they no longer enjoy participating in this community. This is a private poll.
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
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  2. #2
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    Sometimes it seems to me, that this site should be called postswars.org rather than its current name ...
    Many sites suffer this problem from time to time. IMO, this site is broadly no better nor worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    it's like someone came along and made the rule that civility is unwelcome here.
    I have been here 12 weeks. Not long at all. I'm not sure at what point you feel it started to unwind. My forays into older threads suggest the situation is broadly neither better nor worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    For those angry ones... I don't know.
    I consider myself quite perceptive. I am yet to meet anyone I would classify as angry. As a working example, you have suggested that I am angry a few times. I'm not. Perhaps its a perception thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    Like, this kind of stuff used to go on before and all but it's never been this bad.
    Could it be your orientation? Perhaps it just seems closer to home with the advent of quite a few more active Qld'ers. Perhaps this place is now more fun for the non Qld'ers. Two of the main protagonists are people whom a) you have a personal and real-time friendship with, and me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    There used to be the Bill vs. Matt, Bill vs. Cat stuff on the board and it was all a laugh
    Was it a laugh? Who for? Cat, Matt and their cheer squads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    The sour remarks on this BB now cause a stench that seeps through the pores of the chess community and permeates to the outside.
    I have always maintained that article 42 applies. IMO opinion Matt was on a one track, non stop, day after day rotation of his gripes. He called the NSWCA president a dog on a daily basis. His behaviour was rank by any and all reasonable standards. It is no wonder his actions and resulting reactions have no permeated the outside world, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    Is it, because the two most active moderators are also the ones who seem to enjoy antagonistic verbal stoushes the most? Are they to blame?
    I don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    Or is it simply posters in general who have adopted this impatience with anyone who seems the slightest bit out of line with their own ideals and spew out a barrage of insults that most would only reserve for troglodytes and trollops?
    I can only speak for myself. I see very few insults other than those hurled by me. The ones I hurl are particularly deserved and well targeted IMO. Apart from 442 and perhaps yourself, I am yet to hear otherwise.

    I think one of the shifts which may be at the root of your chagrin is that the emphasis has changed from kicking authority figures to kicking trouble makers. If the worm has turned, then the people who are now unhappy have just changed identities. The quantity remains the same.

    My observations from a limited base.
    Last edited by Basil; 13-07-2006 at 12:49 AM.
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  3. #3
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Duggan
    I think one of the shifts which may be at the root of your chagrin is that the emphasis has changed from kicking authority figures to kicking trouble makers. If the worm has turned, then the people who are now unhappy have just changed identities. The quantity remains the same.
    My observations from a limited base.
    Hello Howard,

    Had intended to reply to Belthasar, but this quote is easier to reply to to sum up my long winded post to Belthasar.

    I dont think it matters whether it is kicking authority figures, or kicking trouble makers, the point is the same, the hostility.

    I do believe quite a few posters use this board to vent spleens and create trouble. Quite often it is used as a way to complain, instead of using the 'proper' channels of officialdom.

    Also, another thing that doesnt help is when posters come on, complain about a topic, posts are exchanged back and forth (sometimes quite rudely from one or both sides), the issue is settled/one poster gives up, then suddenly two months down the road, the same issues are brought up again by the same complainers. This process gets very tiring after a while.

    I do wonder if having anonymous names helps or hinders the problems on this board?

  4. #4
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    Like, this kind of stuff used to go on before and all but it's never been this bad. There used to be the Bill vs. Matt, Bill vs. Cat stuff on the board and it was all a laugh but it's gone outside and now Matt's banned from the NSWCA. The sour remarks on this BB now cause a stench that seeps through the pores of the chess community and permeates to the outside.
    I personally didnt find much funny at all with the continual garbage that was continually posted between the posters you mention above.

    My thoughts were that by allowing it, it only made the situation worse.

  5. #5
    Account Permanently Banned Axiom's Avatar
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    construction

    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    I personally didnt find much funny at all with the continual garbage that was continually posted between the posters you mention above.

    My thoughts were that by allowing it, it only made the situation worse.
    and underscores the value of poster adhering to the principles of assertive behaviour encouraging more constructive dialogue


    its not totally ridiculous to suggest that all prospective member pass an assertive training module before being allowed entry!

  6. #6
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Duggan
    Many sites suffer this problem from time to time. IMO, this site is broadly no better nor worse.
    They do indeed, but there has IMO been a significant shift lately.

    I have been here 12 weeks. Not long at all. I'm not sure at what point you feel it started to unwind. My forays into older threads suggest the situation is broadly neither better nor worse.
    It is hard to pinpoint but it is certainly noticeable now.

    I consider myself quite perceptive. I am yet to meet anyone I would classify as angry. As a working example, you have suggested that I am angry a few times. I'm not. Perhaps its a perception thing.
    Take 'angry' as sensationalist. Often it's not the intent but the vocabulary. For instance, KB remarked to me he is very calm and comfortable on this BB yet some things he says could be construed as exceedingly harsh. Yet other times it is intent - Bill may only use words like 'fool' and 'moron' but the tone is terribly condescending. Either way, it's something I believe can be worked on.

    Could it be your orientation? Perhaps it just seems closer to home with the advent of quite a few more active Qld'ers. Perhaps this place is now more fun for the non Qld'ers. Two of the main protagonists are people whom a) you have a personal and real-time friendship with, and me.
    I appreciate your input on determining whether these views strike into a personal domain but I assure you they extend further - the HD/AO thing is but a tiny facet. I won't name names yet but there's at least 10 other posters involved in this increased 'nastification'.

    Was it a laugh? Who for? Cat, Matt and their cheer squads?
    A novelty I'm sure. Both parties I believe were excessive in the end though.

    I have always maintained that article 42 applies. IMO opinion Matt was on a one track, non stop, day after day rotation of his gripes. He called the NSWCA president a dog on a daily basis. His behaviour was rank by any and all reasonable standards. It is no wonder his actions and resulting reactions have no permeated the outside world, IMO.
    You've only witnessed recent posts. It's not my business to comment on the saga itself but suffice to say you only have recent observations to go on.

    I don't think so.
    Perhaps, I myself am not sure, but others may disagree.

    I can only speak for myself. I see very few insults other than those hurled by me. The ones I hurl are particularly deserved and well targeted IMO. Apart from 442 and perhaps yourself, I am yet to hear otherwise.
    There are reasons that some posters have left this BB and others rarely post. And they are not all personal ones.

    I think one of the shifts which may be at the root of your chagrin is that the emphasis has changed from kicking authority figures to kicking trouble makers. If the worm has turned, then the people who are now unhappy have just changed identities. The quantity remains the same.
    Absolutely not.

    My observations from a limited base.
    They do and I am speaking from a longitudinal aspect. From your perspective there probably hasn't been much shift at all.
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
    - White Queen, Alice through the Looking-Glass

  7. #7
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggrayggray
    I dont think it matters whether it is kicking authority figures, or kicking trouble makers, the point is the same, the hostility.

    I do believe quite a few posters use this board to vent spleens and create trouble. Quite often it is used as a way to complain, instead of using the 'proper' channels of officialdom.
    Absolutely. And this hostility is something we can do without I'm sure.

    Also, another thing that doesnt help is when posters come on, complain about a topic, posts are exchanged back and forth (sometimes quite rudely from one or both sides), the issue is settled/one poster gives up, then suddenly two months down the road, the same issues are brought up again by the same complainers. This process gets very tiring after a while.
    Ah, but why do they give up? Because sometimes they are so hounded personally that they believe it futile to continue despite at times actually having a valid point.

    I do wonder if having anonymous names helps or hinders the problems on this board?
    While that's a separate issue, I don't believe anonymous posters will be taken as seriously when it comes to real life issues. It is however their perogative to stay anonymous and be entertaining though.

    I personally didnt find much funny at all with the continual garbage that was continually posted between the posters you mention above.

    My thoughts were that by allowing it, it only made the situation worse.
    I know - you are the most vocal BB poster when it comes to desiring thread-splits on flamewars.
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
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  8. #8
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiom
    and underscores the value of poster adhering to the principles of assertive behaviour encouraging more constructive dialogue


    its not totally ridiculous to suggest that all prospective member pass an assertive training module before being allowed entry!
    It's not that I'm anti-flamewar - while I no longer enjoy personal participation I can appreciate them. This is why I was a strong advocate for such material to be put in the Coffee Lounge in an unmoderated forum. Sadly CL is no longer exclusively unmoderated yet thus far the mods have let things continue relatively unhindered, which is a bonus.
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
    - White Queen, Alice through the Looking-Glass

  9. #9
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    It's not that I'm anti-flamewar - while I no longer enjoy personal participation I can appreciate them. This is why I was a strong advocate for such material to be put in the Coffee Lounge in an unmoderated forum. Sadly CL is no longer exclusively unmoderated yet thus far the mods have let things continue relatively unhindered, which is a bonus.
    I think this could actually be a very good function for the tea sofa. Then only posters +200 see them (if they wish to read the sf thread) and are the ones most likely not to be scared by the trash.

    Usually the flamewars have zero meaning for those not involved in the flamewar.

  10. #10
    CC Grandmaster Garvinator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    I know - you are the most vocal BB poster when it comes to desiring thread-splits on flamewars.
    not just flamewars Self proclaimed thread policeman for a reason I basically maintain that if you want to change topics, start a new thread. It isnt difficult to start a new thread.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    Ah, but why do they give up? Because sometimes they are so hounded personally that they believe it futile to continue despite at times actually having a valid point.
    I generally think this board is fine, although I've no doubt I'm one of those you are thinking of when you say this board has become less civilised. It has been pointed out before that I post aggressively and that may be because I’m semi-illiterate who knows? I do know that if I had/used better grammar I’d be better understood and may not seem as aggressive as often as I might but as that’s not the case? *Shrugs*

    There are a few posters who no longer post here that is true but could you please name them so those who still read and post here will have a better grasp of the situation your saying exist.

    The ones that spring to mind are: Frosty, Libby, Jenni, Paul S, Liberace and Shaun a lot of people say they are going to stop but rarely do but all of those who did leave did so for differing reasons, isn't that just the nature of bulletin boards?

    This is forum right? You offer your opinion be it constructive or not and you get a reply, agree, disagree, share a laugh or have the piss taken out of you. Say something controversial or stupid and you'll be taken to task over it, be rude and more than likely you’ll get rudeness back. This is pretty standard for a group of people with different backgrounds, views and beliefs as diverse as this board has.

    Nobody forces you to read all the rubbish posted here perhaps you should pick and choose the threads you read a bit more carefully? I don't know maybe you are right and I just can't see it. Anyway I’d like to hear about why the poster I named and any others who you think I didn’t no longer post?
    Last edited by bergil; 13-07-2006 at 03:24 AM.
    No this is silly, the whole premise is silly and very badly written. I'm the senior officer here and I've not had a funny line yet so I'm stopping it.

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  12. #12
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bergil
    I generally think this board is fine, although I've no doubt I'm one of those you are thinking of when you say this board has become less civilised. It has been pointed out before that I post aggressively and that may be because Iím semi-illiterate who knows? I do know that if I had/used better grammar Iíd be better understood and may not seem as aggressive as often as I might but as thatís not the case? *Shrugs*
    If you believe you are one of those people, why not make a determined effort to be more diplomatic and understanding? Having a strong command of grammar has nothing at all to do with politeness.

    There are a few posters who no longer post here that is true but could you please name them so those who still read and post here will have a better grasp of the situation your saying exist.

    The ones that spring to mind are: Frosty, Libby, Jenni, Paul S, Liberace and Shaun a lot of people say they are going to stop but rarely do but all of those who did leave did so for differing reasons, isn't that just the nature of bulletin boards?
    You've named a few of those I had in mind but there are many others as well. While you're correct that at times outside circumstances preclude one from remaining an active poster, other times, it is the site itself that may discourage a poster from staying involved. I've received PM's from people telling me they're not interested in posting here as long as certain moderation standards continue - that should be clear enough.

    This is forum right? You offer your opinion be it constructive or not and you get a reply, agree, disagree, share a laugh or have the piss taken out of you. Say something controversial or stupid and you'll be taken to task over it, be rude and more than likely youíll get rudeness back. This is pretty standard for a group of people with different backgrounds, views and beliefs as diverse as this board has.
    Now I'd like to believe it were that simple. If it WERE, dare I say, none of the currently banned posters would be banned. There are certain 'standards' that ARE enforced and others that are left to fall by the wayside. There are also alliances, power trips and pseudo-insults that factor into outside perception. There is genuine rebuttal yet there is out and out snideness. What IS certain is there is little congruence between some posts and their subsequent responses and very often posts are far too heavy-handed, particularly in responding.

    Nobody forces you to read all the rubbish posted here perhaps you should pick and choose the threads you read a bit more carefully? I don't know maybe you are right and I just can't see it. Anyway Iíd like to hear about why the poster I named and any others who you think I didnít no longer post?
    I'm not sure what you mean here, perhaps there are some typos in the grammar. As for reading, everything posted here is available to be digested and judged accordingly. It is only the very sensitive that should take caution.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belthasar
    You've named a few of those I had in mind but there are many others as well. While you're correct that at times outside circumstances preclude one from remaining an active poster, other times, it is the site itself that may discourage a poster from staying involved. I've received PM's from people telling me they're not interested in posting here as long as certain moderation standards continue - that should be clear enough.

    Now I'd like to believe it were that simple. If it WERE, dare I say, none of the currently banned posters would be banned. There are certain 'standards' that ARE enforced and others that are left to fall by the wayside. There are also alliances, power trips and pseudo-insults that factor into outside perception. There is genuine rebuttal yet there is out and out snideness. What IS certain is there is little congruence between some posts and their subsequent responses and very often posts are far too heavy-handed, particularly in responding.
    C'mon Belty say what you really mean and name names and their reasons otherwise you'll go nowhere with this thread.
    No this is silly, the whole premise is silly and very badly written. I'm the senior officer here and I've not had a funny line yet so I'm stopping it.

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  14. #14
    CC Grandmaster Alan Shore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bergil
    C'mon Belty say what you really mean and name names and their reasons otherwise you'll go nowhere with this thread.
    The purpose of this thread is to promote an awareness that some people are not behaving very nicely on this BB - that is all.

    If you wish to know names of those who are upset by what has transpired here, simply look at the disparity between certain posters and the regularity with which they post.

    If you feel you are not clever enough to work out who, you're welcome to enquire by PM, but if you do, you will be admitting you are a poor detective!
    "I can't go back to yesterday because I was a different person then."
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  15. #15
    CC FIDE Master Dozy's Avatar
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    I had a bet each way in the poll. Some posters could be more civil, but so could some of the mods.

    It took me a while to come to grips with this BB. It was the first I'd been involved with and I couldn't believe the level of personal abuse in some of the so-called flame wars. Give me a break, gang. I thought that sort of name-calling was left behind in primary school (along with writing naughty words on lavatory walls -- which was parallelled in the swearing alphabet in the CL).

    I mostly enjoy the BB and stay on for a number of reasons -- it's a wonderful source of information, it gives me the chance to promote what's happening at Rooty Hill (as part of my publicity job), it permits pleasant interaction with a like-minded souls, and there's lots of good humour on the board.

    I think we'd probably be better off without a couple of our more-abusive, less-sensitive posters but since I have no right to impose my views on them I mostly ignore their posts or, at best, skim them.

    I know that I've also been guilty of offending more than once. It was probably my post that caused Jenni's melt-down, and even one of the good guys felt the need to vent his spleen against me the other day when I posted a link that offended him. I understood his point-of-view, but it's a fact that when you post on a BB there is always the risk of offending somebody.

    So what's to be done? Probably nothing that wouldn't destroy the forum.

    I regret the level of abuse from the self-styled (and self-important) Flame Warriors--it must stop a lot of potentially ineresting contributors from ever putting words to screen, and shorten the posting lives of many who do venture an opinion. But it's the interaction and exchange of ideas that make a BB interesting.

    Maybe the BB is a bit like chess itself -- people who have no talent for the game may join a club and play in a tournament or two, but unless they get to win sometimes they don't stay around very long.
    Visit my chess blog: http://blog.chess.com/Dozy

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