View Poll Results: It is ok to use the following...

Voters
40. You may not vote on this poll
  • Use a board to do calculations

    33 82.50%
  • Use pen and paper to do calculations

    26 65.00%
  • Consult a chess book or website

    18 45.00%
  • Use a computer chess engine

    2 5.00%
  • Ask for advice

    2 5.00%
  • None of the Above

    2 5.00%
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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutek
    Hi Michael,

    I can tell you from my own experience that a good CC player will beat any program/engine at CC.

    Good example would be CC GM Nickel smashing Hydra in their recent 2 game corro match.

    Games and notes can be found at
    http://amici.iccf.com/issues/issue_0...kel_hydra.html

    from what I've read on the net I believe that original agreement was to play a return match (regardless of the result) but the Hydra team has now ceased all communications with Nickel!
    The question is whether he used the help of the computer or not. Man plus computer is much stronger then a man or computer alone.

  2. #17
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutek
    Hi Michael,

    I can tell you from my own experience that a good CC player will beat any program/engine at CC.

    Good example would be CC GM Nickel smashing Hydra in their recent 2 game corro match.
    However I was also following a match in which Nickel was playing against six unnamed engines by correspondence and I think there the results were pretty even although I don't remember the final score. (The engines were disguised with names like Venus, Pluto etc so he would not know what computer he was up against in each game.)

    On the basis of Sutek's comments that two major CC organisations have now allowed computer use, I've changed my view to that computer use is OK unless the rules of the competition specify otherwise. I was only aware of ICCF allowing computers. There is actually a Tasmanian player, Bruce Oates, playing at a very high standard in computer-assisted CC events although we have never seen him at any OTB event.
    Last edited by Kevin Bonham; 29-06-2006 at 02:11 PM.

  3. #18
    CC International Master ElevatorEscapee's Avatar
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    Hi Kevin,

    I know that there were specific "computer assisted" tournaments where the use of chess engines was allowed when I was still playing postal Correspondence Chess in the mid 1990s (admittedly I haven't played this form of chess for a very long while).

    I would be greatly surprised, astounded, agog, flummoxed in fact! if computer engine assistance was permitted in general correspondence chess play!

    The main reason is because it would be just like asking another chess player for advice (only instead of the other chess player being human, it happens to be a very strong electronic chess engine).

    If both players were aware that they were particpating in a "computer assisted" match before the start of the game, I would have no troubles with it all, however if one player was getting help from Fritz without the other player's knowledge, I would consider that akin to asking advice from a third party.

    I vaguely remember a demonstration "computer assisted" match between a couple of grandmasters in the 1990s (Karpov & Anand perhaps, maybe won by Anand?)... they called it "Advanced Chess", however it failed to capture the imagination of the chess playing public despite the funds from the chess paying (computer) sponsors!

    If correspondence chess allows 'computer assistance' in such a manner, then it will die a slow but sure death as players will become ever more disgruntled after each loss wondering if they were playing a human being or a computer.
    "On my chess set, all the pawns are Hamburglers" ~ Homer Simpson.

  4. #19
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    I just saw an interview in "Chess Life" with the winner of the last ICCF (I think it was) world champs where he talked openly about using computer assistance and about using computer assistance being permitted.

    Sutek is an extremely strong correspondence player and I'm sure he knows what he is talking about. I was actually not aware that more than one group had removed the restriction; I had thought that most still banned it.

    I vaguely remember a demonstration "computer assisted" match between a couple of grandmasters in the 1990s (Karpov & Anand perhaps, maybe won by Anand?)... they called it "Advanced Chess", however it failed to capture the imagination of the chess playing public despite the funds from the chess paying (computer) sponsors!
    This continues to be held but is not attracting that much attention. I think the Karpov and Anand match (which Anand won easily) was the second, after a Kasparov-Topalov match which was tied.

    If correspondence chess allows 'computer assistance' in such a manner, then it will die a slow but sure death as players will become ever more disgruntled after each loss wondering if they were playing a human being or a computer.
    Not being a regular CC player (due to lack of time) I can't make an informed comment but I doubt the outlook is so pessimistic. I assume that even with the computer there would still be a great role for human skill. I have noticed that analysing with a computer (eg when annotating a game) is something where you can't just follow the computer blindly, otherwise you come out with rubbish. I imagine the same is true in CC.

  5. #20
    CC International Master ElevatorEscapee's Avatar
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    If this is truly the case, then I am extremely disappointed and saddened in CC to see that it has degenerated to such a state.

    If computer assistance is allowed, where does this leave current online "Correspondence Chess Games" such as those played on this site? (eg, can Axiom now start using a computer to work out his moves in his game against Kevin Bonhman in their game in the Correspondence Chess thread? ... or if both players have agreed prior to the game to only use their wits, would such a practice be deemed as illegal?)

    Hmmm, a brief glimpse at the ICCF site doesn't enlighten overmuch. The rules neither seem to suggest legality or illegality of such a nefarious practice, so people can assume that it is permissable... all in all I suggest this to be a p*ssweak/p*sspoor effort on behalf of the ICCF.

    However, much more pleasant news can be obtained from the CCLA forum! "The CCLA forbids the use of engines or chess programs." (as per a CCLA Council member on the CCLA website).

    Yay! Yay! CCLA! Hooray!

    A number of people abandoned the CCLA back in the late 1990s, using the excuse that they didn't know if they were playing against a human or a computer... a strong stance such as this one taken by the CCLA, is just what people need to be drawn back! (I am tempted to join again myself!)

    So if you want a decent correspondence chess game, free of computer cheats (or at least those who own up to it!), join the CCLA!
    "On my chess set, all the pawns are Hamburglers" ~ Homer Simpson.

  6. #21
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevatorEscapee
    If computer assistance is allowed, where does this leave current online "Correspondence Chess Games" such as those played on this site? (eg, can Axiom now start using a computer to work out his moves in his game against Kevin Bonhman in their game in the Correspondence Chess thread? ... or if both players have agreed prior to the game to only use their wits, would such a practice be deemed as illegal?)
    I suggest that players continue such games as they have started - however before any future CC games I play on the site I will seek clarification from the opponent as to whether computers are to be allowed or not.

  7. #22
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I suggest that players continue such games as they have started - however before any future CC games I play on the site I will seek clarification from the opponent as to whether computers are to be allowed or not.
    That is my point, and why I started this thread. We have differing opinions on what is acceptable. I'm sure people will be amicable as long as it is known upfront what the rules are.
    meep meep

  8. #23
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    From Graham Burgess' Mammoth Book of Chess,
    Robinson Publishing 2000.

    Correspondence Chess:
    ... I should explain that while some correspondence chess organisations explicitly ban the use of computers, others, including The International Correspondence Chess Federation (ICCF), do not. ...
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  9. #24
    CC International Master ElevatorEscapee's Avatar
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    Mention of this thread came up a couple of weeks ago. Given that there has been a number of new members since 2006, would there be any value in having this thread as a "sticky"?

    I personally applaud the practice of players labelling computer assisted games as "freestyle" before the game starts.
    "On my chess set, all the pawns are Hamburglers" ~ Homer Simpson.

  10. #25
    CC International Master Kaitlin's Avatar
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    I would have also clicked 'consult a chess book' but didnt cause its teamed wif sumtn else
    .. this Caketin is full of little spiders and watermelon seeds.....

    ..Chess is all about fear and psychology

    ..Chess is like an exam..... you havent studied for

    ..If you're good at Chess it means you are very intelligent and could potentialy do great things
    ..... but that you might have wasted that playing way too much chess

  11. #26
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElevatorEscapee
    Mention of this thread came up a couple of weeks ago. Given that there has been a number of new members since 2006, would there be any value in having this thread as a "sticky"?
    I think it is a very good idea to have a sticky thread of some kind on this issue.

    Whether it should be this thread, or whether it should simply be a brief official statement about what is generally considered acceptable practice here is something re which I will wait for further comments.

  12. #27
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    Before my first correspondence game, I researched the rules and followed what a chessbase article stated what the rules are for proper correspondence chess.

    1. No computers or engines in anaylsis mode
    2. Players can use any material available (books, databases, articles) as these are considered available information.
    3. You can move pieces around on the board.
    4. You could put a position into fritz and get information on played moves and their scores as this is historical information.
    5. You can not ask someone else for advice.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronD
    Before my first correspondence game, I researched the rules and followed what a chessbase article stated what the rules are for proper correspondence chess.

    1. No computers or engines in anaylsis mode
    2. Players can use any material available (books, databases, articles) as these are considered available information.
    3. You can move pieces around on the board.
    4. You could put a position into fritz and get information on played moves and their scores as this is historical information.
    5. You can not ask someone else for advice.
    Points 2-5 are generally accepted and there probably won't be any argument.

    There is no correct answer on the use of engines as there are CC events which allow them and others which don't. It seems to me that any competition that does not explicitly state the rule one way or the other is asking for trouble.

    Even then there can be grey areas. If a player has just played 5...a6 in the Sicilian is their opponent allowed to research variations on move 12 of the Najdorf? On the one hand this is still using an engine. On the other hand the position has not actually happened, a ban in these circumstances would prevent players using computer preparation for OTB games, and if somebody else did the same research and published it then it would be OK. Or what about if the player had done the computer-aided research before the tournament started?

    I think the simplest would be to allow engine use generally, on the basis that it is difficult to stop, it is unclear where the boundary is, and the original motivation for prohibiting it was in part that it disadvantaged those who didn't have a computer and chess software whereas now most players do. Players who wanted to play computer-free games could then still join or start tournaments which expressly banned engines.

  14. #29
    CC Grandmaster Basil's Avatar
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    My preferred rule:
    Only moving pieces around on a board is permitted

    My rationale is
    • this practice retains the game to the player (self)
    • access to other materials and databases is using other people's ideas
    • access to other materials and databases is seldom likely to be exactly equal for both players
    • this is chess, not research!
    There is no cure for leftism. Its infestation of the host mostly diminishes with age except in the most rabid of specimens.

  15. #30
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlin
    I would have also clicked 'consult a chess book' but didnt cause its teamed wif sumtn else
    Seems to me to be a logical grouping. Why do you approve of one but not the other?

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