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  1. #61
    Account Permanently Banned Arrogant-One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Until you back that with evidence you are the one posturing. I have studied the relevant sociohistorical arguments in some depth. You may think you've studied a lot of history but it has been shown again and again in these debates that you lack the understanding of argumentative and scientific method to prove your points using it in the way you think you can.
    Doesn't the circumstantial evidence already back Cat's argument up Kevin? As I mentioned before apart from Japan and Korea, there are no first world countries which are not predominatly Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    I say anyone who gets assassinated is in no position to lecture on the latter.
    So, does that mean you think that any politician who gets assasinated doesn't know very much about politics? I guess we'll need to add JFK and Lincoln and that Aussie PM from the 60's who 'drowned' after the CIA held his head under water too long to this list of 'people who knew nothing about politics'.

    Good argument Kevin!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Nonsense, our constitution explicitly objects to the construction of a state religion, and a preamble adding mention of God was rejected by the people. What you are referring to as Christian heritage is aspects of political heritage that have often co-existed with Christianity but are not dependent on it.
    Is that why when new Australian citizens are sworn in they have a choice of using the God oath or the non-God oath. When I was sworn in everyone choose the God oath.

  2. #62
    Account Permanently Banned Arrogant-One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Please clarify what you mean by "Christian country". You may want to consult statistics on the matter before planting your other foot firmly in your mouth.
    Anyone can see that Christianity is the major religion in Australia Boris. As such Australia is a Christian country.

    That said I found it a bit funny when everyone was outraged by the comments of the NSW woman MP who forecasted that Australia would become predominatly Muslim within 50 years unless some action was taken now to prevent that outcome.

  3. #63
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrogant-One
    Doesn't the circumstantial evidence already back Cat's argument up Kevin? As I mentioned before apart from Japan and Korea, there are no first world countries which are not predominatly Christian.
    I have already addressed this. Conjunctions are not "circumstantial evidence", they are simply historical conjunctions, unless causation can be demonstrated.

    So, does that mean you think that any politician who gets assasinated doesn't know very much about politics? I guess we'll need to add JFK and Lincoln and that Aussie PM from the 60's who 'drowned' after the CIA held his head under water too long to this list of 'people who knew nothing about politics'.
    JFK was lucky to get elected in the first place and is completely overrated as a President because of the circumstances of his death, the reality being that he had little time to acheive very much. And it's news to me that accidental drowning counts as assassination, unless you're one of those who holds the peculiar belief that the CIA did it. Oh dear, I see you are. In any case Harold Holt was hardly a great PM (despite a resounding election win on the back of pro-Yank populism that ensured Australian conscripts would continue to die for nothing in Vietnam) and probably would soon have been rolled as leader had he not perished.

    Good argument Kevin!
    Well, I was being flippant (hoping Cat would see my message first and burst into some silly load of blather before anyone else had a go) but this overrating of Gandhi as a source of universal wisdom never ceases to amaze me. Just because his methods were historically effective in a given situation does not make him an authority on all political situations in all times or mean that his quotes should be employed out of their regional and historical context.

    Is that why when new Australian citizens are sworn in they have a choice of using the God oath or the non-God oath. When I was sworn in everyone choose the God oath.
    That's their business, but people should have the choice.

    There are far too many people in Australia who are happy to reside in a Christian country (Axiom among them), but who denounce Christianity whilst accepting the benefits and privileges of living in a Christian land.

    For instance, the greater economic development resultant from Australia's Christian-Judeao heritage.

    In some respect this is tantamount to biting the hand that feeds you.
    As explained before this is not a Christian country - religious belief is far from universal and frequently only nominally held. Our politicians are generally far more religious than we are. Furthermore the "greater economic development" owes a very great amount to people from non-Judeo-Christian backgrounds.

  4. #64
    Account Permanently Banned Arrogant-One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Well, I was being flippant (hoping Cat would see my message first and burst into some silly load of blather before anyone else had a go) but this overrating of Gandhi as a source of universal wisdom never ceases to amaze me. Just because his methods were historically effective in a given situation does not make him an authority on all political situations in all times or mean that his quotes should be employed out of their regional and historical context.
    Its strange but we appear to have found common ground in at least in one respect. I concur with the above quoted text fully and without reservation!

  5. #65
    CC International Master Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    Cat, your old avatar was one of the funniest I've seen and the new one doesn't stack up.
    Ok Boris, I'll work on it, I was trying to keep AO happy.
    Power comes from the barrel of a gun.

  6. #66
    CC International Master Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    "I would prefer you to cite some or at least link to a set of relevant links.
    Sorry but the quote tabs aren't working on my computer for some reason. KB, there's a huge body of research out there and to offer you a single link would be disingenuous. Look through medscape, you'd find plenty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    Having no axe to grind does not make a study immune from error. Sometimes neutral sources produce bad science leading to sensational findings. The vested interest sometimes at play here is that an increase in public attention for an unusual finding makes their institution appear more relevant.
    True, but as I say the body of research is substantial. I would say mine is the mainstream opinion within my profession
    Last edited by Bill Gletsos; 18-06-2006 at 09:52 PM. Reason: corrected quoting
    Power comes from the barrel of a gun.

  7. #67
    Illuminati Bill Gletsos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat
    Sorry but the quote tabs aren't working on my computer for some reason.
    You do realise dont you that you can manually enter the {quote} and the {/quote} tabs (note in reality those braces { and } are [ and ]).
    The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.

  8. #68
    CC Grandmaster antichrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gletsos
    You do realise dont you that you can manually enter the {quote} and the {/quote} tabs (note in reality those braces { and } are [ and ]).
    and I can offer further advice on quoting if you like.

  9. #69
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat
    Sorry but the quote tabs aren't working on my computer for some reason.
    What browser do you use?
    meep meep

  10. #70
    CC FIDE Master
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    for what it's worth

    I am an atheist on inductive rather than deductive grounds.

    It is rather like the argument that if 700 white birds have flown past it is unlikely that there will be a black bird flying past. People have been around for a long time; yet there is at best a mere hodge-podge of circumstantial, subjective, unverified evidence that God , whatever that is, exists. Of course I can never prove that God does not exist. But that's a bit like the joke in philosophy classes about being unable to disprove that there si an invisible dinosaur in the room.

    Whether someone, such as John Howard, agrees or disagrees with the above reasoning, I am entitled to think how I want to without being marginalised or intruded upon by religious people.

  11. #71
    CC Grandmaster road runner's Avatar
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    You also cannot prove that the room even exists.

    But the point is that arguments between bullievers and athiests are not about evidence. The former usually understand the CONCEPT of evidence enough to realize that they have no leg to stand on if the argument is waged on these grounds.

    Oh wait, I forgot... they do have evidence ... it says so in the bable (oops I mean bible)
    meep meep

  12. #72
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    what to do

    When a believer pulls out their bible here is what to do:

    pull out a good anatomy reference! Anything by the late J.Z.Young is good. Slowly flick through the pages and point to rats, horses, rabbits...hmm... where is god?

  13. #73
    Monster of the deep Kevin Bonham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat
    KB, there's a huge body of research out there and to offer you a single link would be disingenuous.
    Then offer me five. Or ten or twenty. I don't care how many.

    Quote Originally Posted by qpawn
    But that's a bit like the joke in philosophy classes about being unable to disprove that there si an invisible dinosaur in the room.
    The beast was originally a rhinoceros. Wittgenstein and Russell had an argument about it with Russell asking Wittgenstein to admit that there was definitely not a rhinoceros in the room and Wittgenstein refusing to do so.

  14. #74
    Reader in Slood Dynamics Rincewind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Bonham
    The beast was originally a rhinoceros. Wittgenstein and Russell had an argument about it with Russell asking Wittgenstein to admit that there was definitely not a rhinoceros in the room and Wittgenstein refusing to do so.
    That doesn't mean there wasn't a dinosaur though. Perhaps a small one, hiding behind the invisible rhinoseros.
    So einfach wie möglich, aber nicht einfacher - Albert Einstein

  15. #75
    CC FIDE Master
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    there it is!

    Something with huge teeth has ripped my sofa in half...

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